Date   

Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice

Bonnie
 

Barbara, I also have a Welsh Section C pony. When he arrived he was put in a small pasture. In four months he had gained 120 pounds. *A pound a day* There were also skin allergies. Fortunately through this group's protocol, that weight gain and allergic issues have been corrected. 
Your little beauty is in the right place to receive improved health. We will be following your progress!
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


New Poll - Important #poll-notice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

As you all know, we do not consider fructan - a component of NSC and WSC - when evaluating the likely safety of a hay but recommendations to limit NSC rather than ESC are still very common elsewhere.

If you have a hay analysis and are safely (no laminitis flares) feeding the hay, please answer the question:

What is the NSC of your hay?  [NSC = WSC + starch]

Results

See Who Responded


Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Both the metformin and the NSAIDs (bute and Banamine) can cause oral ulcers; the NSAIDs stomach ulcers (and colonic) as well - not to mention kidney damage, restricted circulation, delayed healing, impeded abscess drainage. Her feet clearly show chronic laminitis but no changes that couldn't be rehabed. Toes need to come back.

  You could ask your vet about a trial of omeprazole for possible gastric ulcers. If syringing in metformin, be sure to rinse the mouth thoroughly. Use Milk of Magnesia as a carrier for bute instead of water.

IMO the pain meds are doing more harm than good. They just don't work that well for endocrine-related laminitis pain and side effects are significant. We see better results with Jiaogulan or Jiaogulan + Devil's Claw to start. She may have neuropathic pain as well since this is a chronic situation.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: ALCAR questions

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The dose is 1 g/100 lbs of body weight. You can divide it between meals.  More isn't harmful but it may not help, especially with cold induced pain.  The ALCar helps with neuropathic pain which is pain that is exaggerated due to changes in the nerves and spinal cord. Those changes have been documented in horses with chronic laminitis.

Yes, it's safe long term.

I don't recall any horses whose pain has responded that quickly. ALCar does have other effects, particularly in improving muscle function. Do you know what the horse side of his parentage was? I'm wondering if he has a myopathy that it is helping.

Don't worry about it masking pain. If he's limping, he still feels pain. It only helps specifically with neuropathic pain.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Help for Teeny Desperate for feedback

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Good. That's normal.  Doesn't rule out a thyroid issue completely though.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Barbara,

It will make your feeding decisions a lot easier if you can convince one of your vets to test her insulin. On the current diet and in work she should test normal (work is the best insulin-buster there is). If it is still high, you will need to still be restrictive. If normal, she can move to the diet for EMS horses/ponies in work where she can get something to help  replenish her glycogen stores after work. What usually works well is a combination of 50:50 beet pulp and oats (by dry weight measure).  This should only be fed within an hour of stopping work, when muscle is very glucose hungry.

Do you know anyone who is diabetic? If you can borrow a glucometer, the easiest test for whether she needs her diet liberalized a bit as above is to check her blood sugar before and 10 minutes after stopping work. You only need a  drop of blood. If it goes down, she needs glycogen replenished.

Glycogen is the storage form of glucose in liver and muscles. When levels drop too low you see issues of poor work tolerance/endurance and power. Muscle bulk may decline because glycogen and the water stored in muscle because of it contribute to bulk. That said, most areas of obvious muscling, like the back and rump, have a generous layer of fat over them so simply losing fat can look like loss of muscle. The best area to watch for actual  muscle loss is the upper leg. Very little fat there.

She will still be able to lose fat if you liberalize her diet a bit as long as total calories are not too high.

She's a beauty!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice

 

Lavinia, 

With Eden being in moderate to heavy work (combined driving), do I need to reduce her work load?  I am already seeing a significant loss of muscle tone, stamina, and power since I changed her diet.  I know that there is going to need to be some sacrifices to get her weight down and healthy again, while still trying to maintain her fitness and ability to perform.

I will have the feed store order the Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes for her and will switch her over.  Do you have a preference on brand of ground flax?


--
Barbara Sikkink
Oklahoma
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Barbara%20and%20Eden
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253258


Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice

 

Thanks ... I will check with my vet at KSU and see if that is an option.
--
Barbara Sikkink
Oklahoma
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Barbara%20and%20Eden
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253258


Re: Question for the Canadian folk

KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 

Don't feel stupid, I have been trying for 2 years to do a case history and still don't have it! Not everyone is tech savvey.
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Re: New pretrim pictures posted for mark-ups #photo

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Judy,

I've added the latest mark-ups to Bugsy's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

Huge improvements since you started this campaign and Bugsy has been the beneficiary of all your hard work. I would recommend continuing to do a once weekly soak with the ACV but pack with the goo only if you notice any kind of tenderness in those heel cracks. Keep this up until the "butt cracks" heal up entirely. That crack on the lateral wall of the RF is just the thinning, damaged wall disintegrating as it grows out. Just rasp that entire area away as it's within the flaring wall that is being removed. It appears as if there is definite concavity developing. This starts in the center and moves its way out toward the perimeter. The flatter areas out toward the perimeter are areas that haven't yet developed enough sole thickness so just be patient:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

On any surfaces where he isn't comfortable, continue to use boots until he has developed enough sole to be comfortable. Working him barefoot on surfaces he IS comfortable on is fine. Also remember that feet adapt to whatever surface they spend the most time on, so eventually he will need to acclimate to harder/sharper surfaces on a regular basis if you are going to ride on these types of surfaces. Or, he'll need boots for those times while remaining barefoot where he rsides.

At this point, the continue to remove all the flaring in the lower 1/3 of the walls so it remains out of ground contact. When beveling the from the bottom, don't invade the soles - keep the bevels confined only to the walls. Heels are the biggest ongoing correction, while the walls are mainly a maintenance issue now. Generally, remember to be very targeted in what you DO and in what you DON'T do. It's OK to NOT touch parts of a foot if they don't need any work.

RF dorsal: Green lines show where to keep removing those flares all around. You can see them quite clearly if you put your face next to the leg and look straight down on the hoof from above. You'll see how the tight the new growth is and where the older, damaged, disconnected material flares away from that tight growth. Just keep rasping that flared material inward until it matches the angle from above, then finish the bottom with a bevel to keep what remains out of ground contact.

RF lateral sole plane: Green line shows where the flare is. Blue hashed area is the remaining laminar wedge in the toe area. Blue arrow that goes from the crack to the heel buttress is where to heavily rasp/bevel that area completely away so that is no longer part of the weight bearing. Leave the bar at it's current height at what was the heel-bar junction. This helps the heels to relax down and back while preserving the overall vertical height. Check out  this link, esp. Figures 2,3,4:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

Purple arc is where the bevel at the toe is now - remove the damaged material ahead of this but don't bevel behind this point.

RF sole: Purple arc is the same as the one on the lateral sole plane view. You can see the black sharpie mark you made at the front edge of the bevel ahead of this line but the actual bevel starts at the purple line. All the blue hashed areas need to be removed so the overall foot becomes smaller and tighter to the perimeter of the sole. Blue arrows are where the bars need to be made into the weight bearing structures so the connected blue-hashed wall areas need to be beveled out of ground contact there. Yellow hashes are along the edges of the bars, where a bit of tidying up is needed. Don't do too much, just define that edge a bit more.

LF dorsal: Same as RF.

LF lateral sole plane: See RF, same view.

LF sole: Same idea as the RF, just the bars aren't ready for defining just yet.

RH dorsal: Medial flare more pronounced than lateral one at this point. Keep in mind that the hinds tend to be more oval in shape than the fronts but with the extensive flaring of the heels, the foot is currently looking much rounder. Once you get those flares controlled, and the heels back in and under the horse, they will suddenly look a lot more oval.

RH sole: Follow the discussion regarding the fronts. There has been much more beveling of the fronts than the hinds, so adding a stronger bevel all around will help control the wall flares and ease the breakover at the toe.

LH dorsal: Mirror of the RH.

LH sole: Same as the RH.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Commercial Feed Analysis Library - Tue, 09/08/2020 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Commercial Feed Analysis Library

When:
Tuesday, 8 September 2020

Description:

Commercial Feed Analysis Library

Over the years individual ECIR Group members have sent various commercial feeds to be tested then generously shared the information. The Commercial Feed Analysis Library is a new term for an old file folder where any member can go and view unbiased analyses of commercial feeds. These analyses are a valuable part of the science that the ECIR uses to help our IR and PPID horses and are valuable tools used to prevent laminitis. 

If you have an analysis of a commercial feed please, instead of uploading it to your own folder, please consider sharing it with the entire group by by notifying us here.

View the Commercial Feed Analysis Library 

Thanks for your help and cooperation.

- ECIR Group Owners and Support Team


Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Barbara,

Just some more background for you on the ESC +starch values of these products.

The TC Safe Starch Forage ESC+starch analysis is a typical or average, it isn't a guaranteed one. The product contains added iron, higher fat (min 6%) than desirable and the omega 3 to 6 ratio is inverted.

The Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes are actually manufactured by Ontario Dehy in Canada, then repackaged under the TC name for distribution in some parts of the US. These cubes are guaranteed to be under 10% ESC+starch for every batch. Minerals are balanced, with no added fat. You only need to add plain white salt, vit E and ground flax for a totally safe and complete diet.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice

LJ Friedman
 

Following along with your threads. Just a quick observation. With the advent of video etc. Tele visits etc. I  do my very best to avoid a long trailer ride. I don’t think it’s necessary often. Whenever I need an expert on Jesse, I often settle for second-best to avoid the trailer ride. And often second-best is usually good enough,especially  with the advice you’ll get here.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice

 

Thank you, Sherry!  I will look through everything.  The Safe Starch is even lower in starch/carbs then the Timothy Balance Cubes and is in all in one timothy based feed, so she has not been getting anything (no hay or grass) in addition to it other than the supplements.  If I need to change her off of it, I am game for whatever I need to do.  I can see how the Timothy Balance Cubes could have an advantage based on being a limited ingredient product so less chance of a sensitivity to an ingredient.

I fill take the feet photos tomorrow.  

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NSC-page_web_041320.pdf

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/safe-starch-forage/

--
Barbara Sikkink
Oklahoma
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Barbara%20and%20Eden
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253258


Re: Help for Teeny Desperate for feedback

TERRI JENNINGS
 

Dr. Kellon,
Teeny’s pulse was 36 beats per minute. 
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Re: ALCAR questions

hdavis
 


Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice

Sherry Morse
 

Hello Barbara,

Welcome to the group.

A bit of housekeeping to start - can you please add the link to your CH folder to your signature: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Barbara%20and%20Eden as well as the link to your photo album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253258?

To do that:

1) Go to this link: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/editsub

2) Look at the bottom of that page for the window where you typed your name and location.

3) Add the link to your folder and then make sure you make it "live". Adding a space after your link or hitting enter on your keyboard will turn it blue.

4) IMPORTANT: Scroll to the bottom and hit SAVE!

Now as far as Eden - looking at your CH she is currently 115lbs overweight.  We recommend feeding either 1.5% of current weight OR 2% of ideal weight - whichever is greater - until ideal weight is reached.  That includes all hay and concentrates.  For horses suspected of being IR or PPID we do not recommend grass (more on this in the Diet section below).  So Eden should be eating no more than 15 pounds a day which appears to be the amount you have her on now.  Since you can get Triple Crown products we recommend Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes as they are mineral balanced and you won't need to provide any other minerals for her. The Safe Starch forage may or may not provide all the vitamins and minerals that she needs.  The other option is to have the hay you're planning on feeding her tested and then having the hay balanced to make sure she's getting all the nutrients she needs in her diet.

For a definitive diagnosis of IR or PPID (although 6 would be unusually young for PPID to be an issue it wouldn't be completely unheard of) you need to have a full metabolic panel run including insulin, glucose and ACTH.  Do you have an actual number for the glucose test that your vet did run? One of the most important things to remember is that you are Eden's advocate and if you want to pay the vet to run bloodwork they should do it, even if they think it will show nothing.  BEFORE doing that though, please read the "Diagnosis" section below and make sure you check the directions on the website - https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diagnosis.php - to get the most bang for your buck.

As far as the injury - has she been evaluated to make sure that everything is completely healed internally?  Is her muscling now even on both sides - the picture you posted makes it hard to tell.  It would be really helpful if you could get a full set of hoof photo posted because she appears to have some pretty significant event lines on her hooves.

With all that being said, what follows is our basic welcome letter.  It's a lot of information so feel free to take notes and ask questions once you've read through it all.




Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice

 

This is the Immune Health program - https://strideanimalhealth.com/immune-health-program/

Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253258

--
Barbara Sikkink
Oklahoma
2020


Concerned and Seeking Advice

 

I have a 6 year old Welsh section C mare, Eden, that I am concerned about and I am struggling to get my veterinarian to take my concerns seriously.  I am seeking advice as to if this is something that I should be legitimately concerned about or not.  I posted photos and history in case files.

I have owned this pony since she was 3 years old.  She has always been a perfect weight and never one that leaned to fat.  She has lived on grass her entire life, supplemented with bermuda hay over the winter.  She gets a grass balancer when not in work or Triple Crown Senior when in heavy work.  She is a casual eater.  She is a driving pony and had been in intermittent work depending on the weather and if I had help. 

October 2019, I sent her to a professional trainer.  He was quite far from me and it made visiting difficult, so I was not aware of her condition until May 2020 when she had an accident and I went to assess the situation.  She was quite over weight, but very heavily muscled and fit.  She was working 6 days a week, but only getting 1 hour a day turn out.  She was fed free choice alfalfa and 6 lbs of Purina Impact.  I was not able to bring her home at that time as the vet said it wasn't safe to trailer her with her injury ... she had a huge hematoma at her point of buttock, had micro tears to her hamstring, and torn the top of her rectum.  She recovered quickly and was back in work in 30 days although she was having reoccurring abscesses flaring at her injury site.  She was never unsound, but after her injury, she quit sweating and would blow hard when trotting even a couple of minutes. 

I brought her home in July and put her out in her 1 acre paddock on grass and put her on Triple Crown Lite.  At this point, she had been on One AC for a month and still wasn't sweating, so had vet out.  All I got from them is that she was too fat and at risk for metabolic disease due to her crested neck and fat pads.  I started noticing other things.  Her throat latch is often very swollen, she is extremely itchy all over and rubs constantly, she at times has difficulty swallowing, at a trot she blows hard/loud and has a milky nasal discharge, she is jumpy to touch, she has a definite exercise intolerance which is extremely unusual for her as she is normally "hot" and forward, in the stall her hind legs seem to buckle and stumble but she is normal out of the stall, she is shedding quite a bit and she looks like she is already getting her winter coat in even though it is high 90s here.  In August, I took her back to the vet and they scoped her upper airway and deemed it normal and possible allergies.  They wanted to put her on Thyro L but I was hesitant to do that.  I asked them to run blood work for baseline for metabolic disorder and they only ran glucose which was high normal.  I scalped the grass in a 30' x 80' paddock to get her off grass and put her on Triple Crown Safe Starch only.  I also started her on Stride's Immune Health 30 day supplement program (to treat her microbiome) and Quiessence.  I did see some immediate improvements.  She is sweating now (not normally, but definitely getting sweat) and the roaring noise and milky discharge at trot are gone as is the trouble swallowing.  But, even though she is working 4-5 days a week for 30 to 60 minutes, she is quickly losing her muscle tone and getting a pot belly.  She struggles significantly to canter on a lunge line and under saddle.  

So, I feel like I am throwing darts at a board, but I also feel that my pony is really not right.  Any advice would be appreciated.  I have a veterinary that I greatly respect at KSU that I am willing to make the trip for, but would like to get some feedback before doing so.  

Thank you!

--
Barbara Sikkink
Oklahoma
2020


Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Victoria,

Obviously, it's hard to see the radiographs clearly but there doesn't appear to be much bony column rotation at all. Maybe a slight amount on the LF. There is capsular rotation present, which is a different thing. Sole depth is definitely thin but if the dorsal wall markers were placed correctly, there isn't any actual sinking. Was she standing on each leg when the rads were taken?

If you can't get her to eat the meds, syringe everything in.

Although the hay analysis was done via NIR analysis, the mineral portion is via wet chem so that is accurate. The iron in this hay is high so shake the hay out well before feeding it. Ideally, also rinse it before you soak it. If she won't eat anything else, feed her the rinsed/soaked hay for now as she needs to eat. IF it is high nitrate, the soaking will remove some of that as well as lower sugars.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

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