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Re: Club Foot

celestinefarm
 

Tamara, Lavinia will be able to provide more expert information, but you need to be aware that often the term "club foot" is used to describe a foot with a chronically high heel that isn't a true club foot. Horses will often develop a crookedness in their body if one foot is trimmed with a higher heel than the other front.  Then it gets perpetuated because the horse weights it differently, and favors using one side of the body over the other. Muscles high up in the shoulder and body become shortened and contracted on that side and the syndrome continues.  What the horse has is better described as high/low syndrome and it looks like something that might be the case with Malik. If you look at his photo you posted from March, his left front foot is long in the toe, with the heel underrun and the right front is short in the toe and high in the heel.  This can certainly be improved but it takes not just balanced trimming, but bodywork to relieve the short tense muscles, chiro, etc.  As far as discomfort, as he gets a more balanced trim, he might be developing abscesses to removed dead tissue from previous forces in the foot.  
See this link for more information.
https://www.hoofrehab.com/ClubFoot.htm

--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Club Foot

Tamara Gonsor
 

I have started a new message because I have looked through all when searching "club foot" and can't find what I am looking for. I may have missed it.


I get my hay analysis back this week. Until then I have made the changes I can make, which include:

  • Switch to Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes for mixing supplements https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/timothy-balance-cubes/

  • I have added the recommended dosage and kind of salt

  • I have switched to recommended dose of ground flax

  • I am currently soaking his hay 

  • He was due for a trim right after I started this group and my trimmer is familiar with this group, so we were trimming this way already.

  • Have not added Vit E. Searching for kind recommended here?


With this above being done he has totally changed and was sound. Yesterday he started favoring/limping on his RF (his club foot). 

My questions are: Does a club foot always show more sensitivity because of his history of laminitis/founder? 

Or is this something that can be managed completely, like his IR, once all is balanced?


I will be uploading new blood work, updating case history and new pictures soon once all comes in. In my original group message all this was addressed and talked about. He will be getting more blood drawn soon to verify and check accuracy for PPID, his last test showed negative (pulled in Feb.) but in reading all here it wasn’t done accurately.

 
--
Tamara G. in Arizona 2020
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tamara%20and%20Malik
Malik Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252564


Re: Bloodwork Help - PPID and IR

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

TRH stim is not needed during the seasonal rise because baseline ACTH will be abnormally high already if he has early PPID.  Dr Kellon recommends waiting until January before doing a TRH stim, after the seasonsl rise in ACTH is over, at which time it is an excellent test for diagnosing early PPID.  It is safe, just more expensive and unnecessary right now.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Bloodwork Help - PPID and IR

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rebecca,

This isn't the right time of year to do a TRH Stim test and the initial draw is the same as a baseline ACTH.  If the regular ACTH comes back equivocal then you might look into doing the TRH in December.  As per this message from Dr. Kellon (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/254270) TRH Stim should not be done between mid-July and mid-November.




Re: Bloodwork Help - PPID and IR

Rebecca and Joe
 

Thanks everyone! I got him scheduled for the blood pull Monday, but when I was talking to the vet she suggested running TRH stim instead. She said it's more accurate than ACTH in early PPID detection. I don't know anything about this test, is it safe? Is it worth the extra money to run that instead of ACTH?
--
Rebecca,  Lexington KY, 2020


Re: Hay Analysis Help

 

Hi Emma
Gwen is no longer at Uckele.  She used to balance my hay as well.  As Kirsten said, Dr. Kellon is now the one balancing hay for a Uckele custom mix.  
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Hay Analysis Help

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I believe Dr Kellon will also balance it for free if you buy Uckele products.  You need to email her at her Uckele email address.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: UK bloodwork results help for Red and Kim

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Given that the glucose value is so close to the bottom of the range, I wonder if the sample handling was compromised?  That could result in a lower glucose, which affects the MIRG interpretation.  Just a thought...

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: UK bloodwork results help for Red and Kim

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kim,

High insulin responder means that it takes more insulin than it should to keep Red's glucose level where it is. A MIRG value above 5.6 (Red's is 6.6) indicates he is EMS even tho the G/I ratio indicates he isn't.

His ACTH was quite high for the end of Aug, which is concerning as the seasonal rise will make it rise even further until mid-Oct, when that influence starts to wane. The longer his ACTH remains this elevated, the higher the likelihood that he will experience negative consequences from it - laminitis being a huge one.If this was one of my own horses, I definitely would be speaking to my vet about starting him on pergolide, at least for the seasonal rise period.

Thanks for adding the radiographs and some hoof pix. I changed a couple of the labels on them as the two views that were labeled Heel are actually dorsals, looking at the foot from front to back.

The lateral of the the LF shows thin sole and a broken back HPA, with the coffin bone sitting ground parallel. If the dorsal wall marker was placed correctly, there is sinking - which goes along with the thin soles.This bony column alignment is putting a lot of strain on the tendons and ligaments in the back of the leg and will aggravate the navicular area over time. His heels are definitely underrun, which is a common issue with Quarter Horses. The underrun heels have contributed to the splits in the central sulci that are extending all the way up into the soft tissues of the heel bulbs. The hoof pix also show that there is significant flaring on several of his feet, which needs to be addressed.

Until the trim issues can be corrected, Red would benefit from being kept in padded boots 23/7, with only some time out of them to clean and air them daily. The pads in the boots should be a wedge to help provide more support to the back half of the foot where heels aren't doing their job properly. Powdering his feet with a human Athlete's foot powder at each boot change will help keep the greeblies from taking hold. Make certain to rasp significant bevels into the treads of any boots that he wears at both the toes and the heels.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Dx Question

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Suzanne, although its not grossly inflated I don't think an ACTH of about 58 at the end of August can be considered normal.  If you look at page 2 of this https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf
 you'll see that the peak should be no more than around 55 in October.

It is interesting that your warmblood is insulin resistant but I think you and your vet should consider his elevated ACTH now a sign of early PPID and that might be partly driving the IR result you got.  It may be that he doesn't need pergolide yet but you will want to monitor his ACTH and insulin regularly going forward. If you find he has exagerated allergy symptoms, suppressed immune function, loss of top line, fall laminitis, or soft tissue injuries in the future you'll want to consider PPID first as a possible cause.

Just to keep in mind.  :)

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Hay Analysis Help

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Emma
There is a list of people who will balance your hay for a nominal fee in our Files, here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/HAY%20BALANCING.pdf
You could try contacting one of them.

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

If her pain is being driven by laminitis from elevated insulin, the sooner her diet is controlled the better she will feel.  I don't want to rush a move if you're not ready because 2 weeks is not long to wait, but if her current hay has not been tested and the barn can't soak it and she's still in her laminitic flare up, then she might improve sooner on a more controlled diet.  Ultimately it's your decision to weigh the pros and cons.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Hay Analysis Help

hansonemm@...
 

I just got my hay analysis back and had been planning on sending it to Gwen Decker at Uckele to help me balance it, but it says I don't have the correct email address when I try to send her an email (I used the direct link to her email that is in one of the group files on here) If anyone could let me know where I can contact her at, or if anyone else would like to take a look at my hay analysis and give your opinion, I would greatly appreciate it! I attached a PDF of it to my case history folder. 
--
Emma Hanson
Southwest Wisconsin, USA
Joined 2020
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emma%20and%20Shadoh
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252728&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Pat,

Do you know how much the 3 flakes weigh?  At this point we're really more concerned with the weight than the number of flakes.




Re: Dried Oak Leaves - Donkeys

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Philippa,

A quick search of the Google says leaves can be dangerous to all species of animals:

Oak buds in the spring and green acorn hulls in the fall cause oak poisoning in horses. Oak toxins are highest in:

  • Immature leaves

  • Members of the black and red oak species

  • Immature acorns


https://news.vet.tufts.edu/2018/09/ask-the-expert-the-truth-about-acorn-toxicity/: Oak (Quercus species) toxicity in horses is not common. While most portions of the oak tree; blossoms, buds, leaves, stems, and acorns can be toxic, horses are often not affected because it requires eating a large amount of oak leaves or acorns to show clinical signs.




Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare

Pat
 

Maybe I should move her sooner? Her planned stall not available but a small one is available now.

--
Pat
August 2020
Metro Vancouver BC Canada
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325


Re: Thoughts on laminitis episode for Canadian mare

Pat
 

Actually I have dropped her to 3 flakes per day of timothy and she has been entirely prevented from going on grass for two weeks. I may not have put that into the history....

I'm adjusting supplements as suggested above.

She's on full board 35 mins away, so unfortunately I cannot soak her hay. 

She is moving to a barn that has tested hay sometime in the next 2 weeks.
--
Pat
August 2020
Metro Vancouver BC Canada
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325


Re: UK bloodwork results help for Red and Kim

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kim,

Do you know if those bloodwork results were fasting or non-fasting?  As far as the ACTH - that is a high result even given that we are in the midst of the seasonal rise and one that I would be concerned about, even if the vet is not.  You can read more about the Liphook range here: https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf

For the insulin - the conversion from miu/l to pmol/l give a result of 15 pmol/l for insulin which (unless I've totally mucked up the calculations) indicates that Red is not IR, but he is PPID as per the ACTH test so that is something that should be addressed.

I would also be concerned about the alignment of the bony column in the xray that you were able to share - there are definitely some trim changes that can help with that but I'm going to leave it to Lavinia to explain those.




Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Victoria,

The bute will not help a metabolic laminitis so you can probably taper down as Kirsten already outlined or if she hasn't gotten any bute since she wasn't eating it you can probably just stop it.  Not sure if the gabapentin will do anything for her either.




Dried Oak Leaves - Donkeys

Philippa
 

Hi

I was wondering if anyone knows if dried oak leaves are safe for donkeys to eat? I know that acorns & green leaves are not good - but am unsure about the autumn leaves. My donkeys seem to Hoover them up when they blow into their paddock. One of my donkeys has Cushings & has had chronic laminitis over the last year which has been under control until a couple of days ago after wind blew more leaves in. I’m trying to source the trigger. But it could be the wormer I drenched them with?

Any advice would be appreciated  

Thanks  

Philippa  



--
Philippa New Zealand 2020
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Philippa%20&%20Abraham  ;

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