Date   

Re: Shomee passed this morning

Bobbie Day
 

I’m so sorry for your loss Kim, I hope he’s running free and eating all the green grass he desires. We try so hard for them but what a blessing that you had all those years with him. My old guy passed a couple years ago he was 
about to turn 36, we spent 27 of those together. I was devastated. Thank you for your unselfishness to help others.

--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Feed recommendations please

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Our post-treatment care was antibiotics for 10 days and Bute for 10 days the first time, which was the most invasive treatment.  That one was definitely the hardest on Shaku, but part of that may have been the stress of the trip and missing his buddy who was not there when we got home.  He stood with his head in the darkest corner of the barn for a few day, it was sad to see.  I think he just needed his companion back.

After that, it has just been Bute for a few days and he recovers quickly and within a few days he is off the Bute.  He isn't left on his own anymore so that probably helps too.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Leptin test and Timothy cubes - western Canada

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

I'm not sure about Idexx.  Early on when I first joined some Canadian members had been getting their bloodwork there and I read something that put me off it.  I think I chose UGuelph for our bloodwork because it was the recommended lab, and my vet was able to accommodate me.  My first test was the EMS panel from UGuelph and the pdf of my results came back from UGuelph in the same format as the Cornell results and the same units that everyone else reports for Cornell.  My second test was the PPID panel from UGuelph and my results came back in a totally different pdf format and using the British/Canadian units.  This makes me think the first bloods were sent on to Cornell because that test included leptin, and the second bloods were done at UGuelph. 

I did a search of insulin+Idexx and found one person got significantly lower insulin values at Idexx vs Cornell when they sent the same blood pull to both labs:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/241694
And whatever lab you do pick, you'll want to stick with it if you can:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/239866

It's ok if she finishes the hay before 4 hours are up, the point is to avoid the first insulin spike after a fast (usually it's in the am because they run out of hay overnight), which means blood is pulled at least 4 hrs after the first meal of the day.  For blood pulls later in the day it doesn't matter, unless they have been without hay more than 6 hours then you'd treat it like it was another fast.

You haven't had a laminitic event so she might be ok with the new hay unsoaked,  especially when it's cold this winter.  Or she might not.  That's where knowing her current insulin would be helpful, although the fat pads and crest do indicate it is likely higher than it should be.  You could feed her the new hay unsoaked for a few days and then check her bloodwork to see how well she handles it?

Sounds like a custom mix might be better for this hay.  Your balancer will help you sort it out.  I don't know if Mad Barn's online calculator is fully in line with the ECIR recommended balancing anyways.  It will be interesting for you to see what Kathleen suggests.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: feed question post laminitis

Sherry Morse
 
Edited

Hi Cherie,
 
Please refer to your welcome message (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/255127) and the email you received about joining the Case History subgroup.  That's where all pictures and PDFs related to your horse will go.  You can read more in the Wiki as well: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help.

As far as bloodwork, to cover all the bases you need ACTH, glucose and insulin.
 
If you have any questions on that just let us know.
 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Fish Oil Gelcaps vs Flax

Cindy Giovanetti
 

Dr. K, all of these algal gel caps seem to contain modified food starch In the ingredient list. Is this a concern?

_._,_._,_

--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/
History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Re: Rye hay?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The orchard and crabgrass is OK but never take anyone's word that it's low.

Fescue not a good idea:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22585825

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29293720

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: feed question post laminitis

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Cherie,

Photos won't attach here. You have to make an album for them in the  case history group.

IR is a component of EMS.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: cabergoline and seasonal rise

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

LJ,

As you said, it's uncharted territory so no one knows the correct answer. You do know he was well controlled in September 2019 on 2.5 mL every 10 days. Did the rise get ahead of you so that won't work this time?  I don't know. I do know pergolide won't do any better.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Shomee passed this morning

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

So sorry for your loss, Kim, and sorry I didn't see this in time for input. For future information, for any horse having a formal necropsy, I would be most interesting in iron stains of the liver and hypothalamus periventricular nucleus.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Fish Oil Gelcaps vs Flax

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


Re: Need Advice ASAP -- PPID/IR Horse Won't Walk

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 No evidence of fracture.

VERY IMPORTANT:  There is no change in the  degree of true rotation. True, aka bony, rotation is when the coffiin bone is out of alignment with the the bones above it. There is slight true rotation that hasn't changed.  What has changed is called  capsular rotation which can be fixed with trimming. A laminar wedge has formed which increased the size of the horn lamellar zone -   the distance from the edge of the coffin bone out to the hoof wall.  Because of the weak connections and  formation of the  wedge, the hoof wall has been forced away from the bone and each step is putting lever forces on the wall and forcing it further out. The long toe is also preventing development of any concavity and contributing to the  bone loss in the coffin bone.

Those "gas streaks" are pockets in the lamellar wedge.  Very common. They can be air, old blood or infection.

 Imagine your fingertip is a hoof. If the nail is longer than the tip of the finger itself, when you stand it on end and "walk" on it  the nail is forced away from the finger.

 When you can get a full set of hoof photos up Lavinia can do mark ups. Getting the trim corrected needs to be added to the top of your To Do list.

Use the emergency diet supplements. Do you know where your hay was grown? If it is irrigated hay there is a significant risk of high nitrate levels. Fortunately these can be lowered significantly with soaking.  Try finding some high quality, fragrant alfalfa pellets and throw a handful in with your soaking water to see if it improves the appeal of the hay. You can also make alfalfa "tea" by soaking pellets in boiling hot water then filter after cooling.  Spray that on the soaked hay. Another option is to sprinkle on salt or red beet powder - "beet root powder" here http://www.herbalcom.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cEcommerce.dspProducts&CategoryID=2403&LinkKey=A&OrderClause=Price,DESC .

As for bute alternatives, go with Phyto Quench pellets only for now. No Jiaogulan until trim is fixed and he's on a tight trim schedule.

Homework:  https://hoofrehab.com/AuburnUvetschool.htm
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Cabergoline not working? Input from Dr. Kellon, please.

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There's a possibility the cabergoline would start to work once you get past the rise but with those persistent injection reactions I don't think it's a feasible long term solution. It's also possible she's just not responding to this class of drugs anymore.  She's been on them for 14 years!

The only other option I have any information for is bromocriptine. General drug info here: http://elephantcare.org/http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/vth/Documents/pharmacy-bromocriptine.pdf . Dr. Theelen at Utrecht University told me they use it orally at 0.04 mg/kg in the morning and 0.02 mg/kg in the evening.

I checked on GoodRx for prescription discounts and their best one worked out to under $7/day for a horse her size.  Didn't check any of the others.  The off shore pharmacy prices are actually higher.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Shomee passed this morning

Lesley Fraser
 

I’m so sorry - what a shocking and heartbreaking time for you. Losing such a great friend, and so suddenly, is awful.
I hope the vet’s work on his body can find some clues to what happened to him.
Best wishes
Lesley & over the bridge Omar,
UK, 2012

--
Lesley, 11-2012

Norfolk, UK

Omar - Case History


Re: Shomee passed this morning

Donna Coughlin
 

I am so sorry for your loss. Similar to Shownee, I lost my big guy (Oberon) during colic surgery for a twisted secum and large intestine (usually a worse prognosis). I sat in the OR during surgery for over 4 hours, but he couldn't be saved—too much dead tissue. And my vet is a superb surgeon. Like you, he was with me for almost 20 years (I bought him when he was 10 months old). I caught it very early, but by the time the vet came here, and I trailered him to the clinic, he was also in excruciating pain. That was 3 years ago. I was blessed to share his life and all his adventures; I say good night to him every evening after I've tucked everyone in, as I'm walking from the barn to the house and I look up at the stars. I am sure they are all up there, playing and pain free. 

--
Donna Coughlin, Duke, Robin Goodfellow, Ariel Max and Obi over the Rainbow Bridge (5/17)

CT 2009

 

 


Re: Where to load photos for hoof mark ups

Sue
 

Sherry,

Thank you.  Will read now as I was busy caring for my invalid mother 24/7 when I first joined so read about only what I could do at the time.  Bad timing to rescue a sick horse too.  Couldn't remember how to find all the info. Your link helps  My horse appears under control now but is tripping so hoping a trim adjustment will help.  I hope I can still help him.  We have come so far already.  He actually plays again (something he didn't do when we got him). 

--
Sue M in OH 2019


Re: Trailering to get ACTH and insulin test?

gypsylassie
 

You all just rock!   I get queasy just reading the description of sliding the needle in.  😳
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL


Re: Shomee passed this morning

 

Kim, 19 years is a long time. I am so sorry. Your dedication to Shomee and to all equines is a model. Thinking of both of you.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Re: Cabergoline not working? Input from Dr. Kellon, please.

LJ Friedman
 

I looked at your case history and didn’t see a reason why you started cabergoline?

Do you give one oz of salt each day at a minimum?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Need Advice ASAP -- PPID/IR Horse Won't Walk

LJ Friedman
 

Let’s hope it’s an abscess. Remember icing is wasteful assuming it’s in metabolic which is usually 85 to 90% of the time. As well this time of the year is when many horses get laminitis due to insulin being driven up by uncontrolled PPID levels. What about boots? Many of us an emergency use Styrofoam and duct tape for almost immediate relief.
-- all the best
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Need Advice ASAP -- PPID/IR Horse Won't Walk

sbcable@...
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon. I appreciate your words.

I posted the latest radiographs from yesterday in my photo album. I would love to hear your thoughts because he has definitely gotten worse. The changes are pretty drastic from just two months ago. I don't know what could have caused such a change. He has gotten rambunctious a couple of times and was running and turning quite a bit when a new neighbor brought in his horses. The other change was the migration to TC Safe Starch which I originally thought would be better than the untested, unsoaked Bermuda. If his PPID/IR is not yet controlled, could that lead to the significant rotation change? The only other thing I can think of is my barefoot trimmer had a death in the family and he didn't come for over eight weeks. I tried unsuccessfully to find another competent barefoot trimmer. So Aspen had quite a long time between trims.

I ordered the Bute alternatives you suggested. Do I give them both at the same time, or one during acute phase and the other for maintenance, or is it one or the other? Are these supplements in addition to other supplements I may start to give? I noticed similar ingredients.

I had my regular vet out today for bloodwork. She wants to wait for these results before she provides a prognosis. She wants to see if he's responding to the Prascend. She doesn't believe there's a fracture, but she is concerned about the gas streaks running parallel to the hoof wall. She believes his pain is more a result of serious rotation rather than an abscess. She wants to come every other day this week to administer DMSO for pain, on top of the 2 grams twice per day of Bute. She says we need to get the inflammation down.

I'm back to feeding the Bermuda rather than the TC Safe Starch. I tried soaking again, but he picks at it and leaves most of it in his feeder. The vet thinks it's more important to get him eating. In this situation, what else should I be adding to his diet? A ration balancer?

He is due for a trim next week, but vet said not to do it. Since Aspen can't stand on his left foot, this makes sense. I hope a longer trimming cycle will not adversely affect his healing?

Someone referred me to laser therapy for laminitis. I asked my vet and she referred me to a DVM who provides this treatment. My vet had no knowledge of this therapy and could not provide any insights or recommendations. Do you think this is a treatment worth pursuing?

So...I need to finalize a diet, get further input on his radiographs in terms of what we're dealing with, determine any changes to his Prascend dosage based on bloodwork results, and plot the best course of action in terms of his treatment to get over this acute phase and then get him on a solid maintenance plan.

As always, your input, as well as the advice of everyone else in this group, is so much appreciated. Thank you for all you do!
--
Susan C in Central AZ, July 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20C%20and%20Aspen
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253984

30281 - 30300 of 282046