Date   

Re: Laminitis in Max

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Bethany,

Sorry that you're having to deal with this but for Max, landing with you has likely been a life saver.

While his radiographs do show some serious problems, we've seen a lot worse things here. Right now, I would be cautiously optimistic that this can be turned around with the correct trim AND finding, then eliminating, the underlying cause for the founder. I would urge keeping him barefoot so that you can do the frequent, smaller trims that are the most helpful for hooves like these. While setting him up on shoes will raise his soles off the ground and likely make him feel better immediately, they will also hang him from the very lamina that are already severely compromised. Shoes also prevent you from being able to trim more often, which is needed to stay ahead of the unusual growth patterns feet like this have.

Padded boots, possibly with scooped out depressions under the area where the leading edge of the coffin bones is, should provide him with support and comfort while he heals.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Vet visit and treats?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Pat,

You want her not fasting prior to the bloodwork so if anything she should be getting more at breakfast to keep her occupied, not less (unless I misinterpreted what you meant, which is always possible!)




Re: Harley

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Nicole,

I will let Dr. Kellon or one of the other volunteers who has more experience with iron overload answer that question.  However, with this additional information I would request from your vets that Harvey be retested sooner rather than later for his ACTH level as 1mg may not be enough to control his PPID.  That might well be contributing to the lethargy but at this point that's just a guess - it does happen with some horses and then once their ACTH level is lower they feel better and start acting more like themselves.

If you could create a photo album and upload your Cornell results there (or add them to the Case History file if they are a PDF) that would be helpful as well.  




Re: TRH Stimulation Results

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Emma,

I'm not sure why your Case History and photo links did not appear but has the trimmer brought the toe back from where it was in the most recent x-rays?  You might want to post a trim evaluation request for Lavinia with pictures of the trim as it is right now because there was definitely room for improvement in June.




Re: Borderline high ACTH

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Alicia,

That he went unsound about 5 weeks ago is classic for PPID-induced laminitis as fall laminitis is a common first symptom. While technically-speaking an ACTH of 91pg/ml during the rise is within the grey area, it's high for a 13yo and it's obviously causing laminitis, so average numbers don't mean a thing. This mini has a problem with an ACTH at this level so that's the scenario you deal with. Yes, an ACTH this high will definitely push insulin up, and insulin over 200uIU won't respond entirely to just Metformin when the ACTH is driving it.

TC Safe Starch Forage is not safe, esp. for an IR mini, as the ESC+starch levels aren't guaranteed to be below 10% at all times. It also contains added oil (fat at 6%) and iron - neither of which is recommended for any IR individual - and inverted omega 3:6 ratios. Why is CA Trace being fed with the TCSSF - it already has minerals added to it? He also needs to have ground flax and vit E added to his diet. The Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes (which are the Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy Cubes) are a definitely safe option. Still need to add ground flax, plain salt and vit E if feeding these, but that's it.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Laminitis in Max

Sherry Morse
 





Laminitis in Max

BETHANY BRYANT
 

Does anyone in here have experience with Laminitis/Late Stage Founder - specifically in making a full recovery and being sound for trail riding?  Trying to gather information/advice/opinions on some x-rays ❤️

Back story:

Purchased 16 year old Arabian with adoption contract from SC on Sunday.  The gelding had been turned out on tons of grass and wasn't being used.  The previous owner had his feet trimmed before I arrived to see him, upon arrival he rode and moved soundly.   Trailered down to GA, and took to the vet today for evaluation who ordered x-rays - this is what we see.

Now he wasn't lame, he does not cross gravel well (at the vets office) but that's understandable and just started limping today.  The vet gave a VERY grim outlook.  

My farrier gave a better one, a few friends have all pitched in more thoughts, I've also reached out to other groups.  He's now clearly in pain on his fronts.

This previous owner is not going to take him back and we are trying to get some of our adoption fee returned.

Currently I have a lady who wants to do barefoot trims ever few weeks but my farrier wants to do reversed heart bars.  There's so much information of shoes vs barefoot and I'm struggling with decisions.

He's on a hay/water diet with access to very little grass on a half acre paddock, he came off 50 acres with tall grass and water.  Stalling him was very stressful.  I'm adding a grazing muzzle for extra precaution.

I'm trying to get other advice/success stories and learn.  Horse owner for twenty years, never had to deal with this.

--
Bethany Bryant
Thomasville, GA
2020


Re: Vet visit and treats?

Pat
 

Where are you buying the Ontario Dehy product in BC and... is it the one called "balance"?

Thanks!!
--
Pat
August 2020
Metro Vancouver BC Canada
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325


Re: Borderline high ACTH

 

Alicia, 
To my knowledge the only Triple Crown Feed that is safe for an IR equine is the TC Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes. They are actually the same as the Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes. They are definitely a safe low sugar/starch feed. They would be affordable for a mini. You can put them into a bucket, poor hot water onto the cubes, just enough to cover the cubes then lid the bucket. They will expand nicely and are easy for any horse to eat. When I used them I set up the PM bucket to "fluff" in the morning and in the evening I set up the next  AM feed. I also didn't quite cover the cubes with water. I poured in the hot water to  not quite cover the cubes, put the tight lid on and shook the contents a bit. By the next meal the cubes were expanded out and NOT soggy. My horse didn't care for wet feed.
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Vet visit and treats?

Pat
 

I'm pretty far away. I can ask that she just be given half a flake (2-3 lbs) and no beet pulp or supps and that she is fed promptly at 7. Would that help?
--
Pat
August 2020
Metro Vancouver BC Canada
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325


Borderline high ACTH

Alicia Harlov
 

I have been trimming a chronically foundered mini for a year and a half- he became sound very quickly and has stayed sound until 5 weeks ago. 
He is okay on shavings or in boots but very hesitant on soft ground. He only eats TC Safe Starch forage (hay is too unreliable and owner can't soak), California Trace, and salt, as well as a pre/probiotic prescribed by the vet for chronic free fecal water. 

Vet assumes whatever is causing his FFW is also linked to the laminitis episode, but even so vet pulled blood. 
ACTH is 91, insulin is very high (I want to say >200 but I might be mixing him up with 2 other foundered minis I see). 

Vet put him on metformin, but said ACTH is not unreasonably high given seasonal rise. 

Could an ACTH of 91 drive up insulin, or is it too low to be the potential cause? 

Mini is 13 years old. 

--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast


Re: Updated Case History/Bloodwork

Jen Stern
 

Hi Dr. Kellon,

She started to show left hind end lameness/weakness at the end of August after being in consistent work and doing well.  She also seemed to fatigue easier when in work suddenly.  She’s been treated by a chiropractic vet, massage, etc.  No change.  Tried a few days on Bute, no change.  So I decided to have her bloodwork done to see if there was anything going on there.
The thyroid level is strange.  The selenium is slightly high and Vit. E is on the low end.
She is turned out on small dry lot.  Hay is being soaked.
Let me know if you need any other info.  Thank you!
--
Jen S. NY 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jen%20and%20Deva

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243352


Re: Target's trim

 

Hi Kathie,
I’ve learned quite a bit about understanding the X-rays I’ve seen here since I began paying attention.  I still feel like a beginner.  Before that, I must have been totally illiterate.  It occurred to me, when reading your comments about trimming, that maybe nobody has explained what you’re looking at in the X-ray.  Do you feel comfortable that you know what the various structures are that you see in the X-ray and where those features might be located in the photo?
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Arby and my first experience with laminitis

Anne Kenny
 

Thank you Bonnie for the welcome!  I've read through the info twice so far. Some of it has actually sunk in, but most of it I will need to read several more times to absorb. It's all good.
--
Anne Kenny 2020
Tennessee
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anne%20and%20Arby


Re: Arby and my first experience with laminitis

Anne Kenny
 

Sherry: Thank you for your help. I think I have corrected the link to Arby's case history. Yes, there seems to be several things going in with Arby's feet.  I am so glad to be a part of this group; give me hope!

Thank you again
--
Anne Kenny 2020
Tennessee
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anne%20and%20Arby


Re: Flyte under the weather

Lecia Martin
 

Hi Sherry,    For the most part, Flyte has always tested in the normal range ACTH.  I have learned after 3 bouts of laminitis to monitor his body symptoms and I increase in the fall and drop back in Jan.  I was going to get the stim test done this past spring but with ongoing health concerns and Covid I didn't manage it.  But I am planning for this coming spring.   Upon further research it appears the digestive upset coincided with my new mineral mix.  I stopped it this morning, contacted Scott and I will keep him off it for a few days to see if that is the problem.  He has had high insulin from the beginning of this journey and since being on Invokana he has remained sound.  Thanks for taking a look.
--
Lecia Flyte and Flame
Alberta, Canada


Re: Harley

nicolemillermailbox@...
 

Hi,

I’m going to try and answer both sets of questions here.  I hadn’t filled out the weight information on the case history before. I appologize. I just filled it in and uploaded it again.  Harley has a tendency to get a little thin because he is an anxious horse and often gets ulcers.  When I first got him in August of 2017, he was very thin.  He is a rescue horse.   It took me two months to get enough weight back on him and heal his bruises before I could even think of putting a saddle on him.  His ideal weight is around 900.  He is around 920 right now.  Maybe a little less. I’d give him a 5.5 body condition rating. 

I thought the vet put him on the thyroid medication for the IR.  I guess it is because he is borderline thyroid.  I don’t know. I will ask.

The LMF he is on is the low NSC.  So that’s good, at least I have that going for him.

I’m still confused about giving him an iron supplement.  You say IR horses shouldn’t have that since they have iron issues and often have an iron overload.  Since he seems to have a tendency for the opposite, can I give him iron?

We did not titrate him up on the Prascend. He went straight to 1 mg.

The vet wanted to wait another 2 months to take the Cornell Cushing’s test again.  I can urge them to do it now if you think that is better.

My test results from Cornell have the range at 9-100.  You say it is 9-35.  Perhaps Cornell changed they way they report their results or perhaps what they are referring to when they say 9-100 is something different than range. 

Harley is a gelding.  I’m sorry I didn’t specify that correctly.

The diarrhea was fully completely liquid.  It was not liquid farts.  That is resolved for the moment however.  I got that in control about 3 weeks into the Prascend and pellet diet. 

There were two big changes that occurred when his buddy had the snake bite.  She was taken away in a trailer and he does not like it when horses leave him.  He had two other buddies still with him, but he was attached to the mare.  The other change is that I immediately stopped letting the horses out in the 20 acre pasture and kept them in the ½ acre paddock.  They continued with the same hay, but the 7 hours of pasture time stopped, so the supplemental grass was eliminated immediately.  When he had access to the pasture that included the ability to graze, his manure was the best I’ve ever seen.   

Hopefully that covers everything.  My primary question here is, am I missing something?  Do his numbers look bad enough to justify this intense lethargy? Could this symptom really be related to Cushing’s ad IR, or should I be pushing for some other diagnostics?

--

Nicole in CA 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicole%20and%20Harley


Help! Short term pain management

Jeanne Q
 

Please help.  Glory had her latest trim yesterday and today she is in the most pain she has been in for a long time.  She has been laying down most of the day.  This has not been the norm at all for the last 4-5 months.  Her RF hoof(capsule loss) has been coming along slowly but surely.  She has had a tendon issue on the RF for the last month and Im not sure if it is an injury or possibly it is becoming contracted due to the non use for so long.  Not sure what is causing the pain at this point.  We did lower her heel a bit more but I booted her with a wedge pad last night to bring her down into her heel more gradual.

I would like to give her something for the pain.  I have bute and gabapentin.  What would be my best option?  She is on J Herb.
Thank you! 
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


Re: Feeling Defeated

chemelle
 

Thanks everyone!
I'm going to try a switch to some vermont blend balancer for a bit - it might be more palatable for him and requires very little added minerals with my current hay. I may also try adding a little more pergolide to see what happens.
--
Chemelle
Hillsboro, OR
2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chemelle%20and%20Andy 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94380


Re: Target's trim

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The radiographs don't lie. The foot is way too long in general, toes  miles ahead of the bones, heels underrun.  Fig . 11 here has some of the same thing going on, but only at the very bottom of the foot https://aaep.org/sites/default/files/issues/proceedings-12proceedings-In-depth_the_Foot_from_Every_Angle-Eggleston.pdf .  The upper 1/2  to 3/4 inch of Target's hoof is trying to grow in tighter too but it can't  because of the trim.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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