Re: Laminitis in Max
Hi Bethany,
Sorry that you're having to deal with this but for Max, landing with you has likely been a life saver. While his radiographs do show some serious problems, we've seen a lot worse things here. Right now, I would be cautiously optimistic that this can be turned around with the correct trim AND finding, then eliminating, the underlying cause for the founder. I would urge keeping him barefoot so that you can do the frequent, smaller trims that are the most helpful for hooves like these. While setting him up on shoes will raise his soles off the ground and likely make him feel better immediately, they will also hang him from the very lamina that are already severely compromised. Shoes also prevent you from being able to trim more often, which is needed to stay ahead of the unusual growth patterns feet like this have. Padded boots, possibly with scooped out depressions under the area where the leading edge of the coffin bones is, should provide him with support and comfort while he heals. -- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR
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Re: Vet visit and treats?
Sherry Morse
Hi Pat, You want her not fasting prior to the bloodwork so if anything she should be getting more at breakfast to keep her occupied, not less (unless I misinterpreted what you meant, which is always possible!)
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Re: Harley
Sherry Morse
Hi Nicole, I will let Dr. Kellon or one of the other volunteers who has more experience with iron overload answer that question. However, with this additional information I would request from your vets that Harvey be retested sooner rather than later for his ACTH level as 1mg may not be enough to control his PPID. That might well be contributing to the lethargy but at this point that's just a guess - it does happen with some horses and then once their ACTH level is lower they feel better and start acting more like themselves. If you could create a photo album and upload your Cornell results there (or add them to the Case History file if they are a PDF) that would be helpful as well.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Re: TRH Stimulation Results
Sherry Morse
Hi Emma, I'm not sure why your Case History and photo links did not appear but has the trimmer brought the toe back from where it was in the most recent x-rays? You might want to post a trim evaluation request for Lavinia with pictures of the trim as it is right now because there was definitely room for improvement in June.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Re: Borderline high ACTH
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Alicia,
That he went unsound about 5 weeks ago is classic for PPID-induced laminitis as fall laminitis is a common first symptom. While technically-speaking an ACTH of 91pg/ml during the rise is within the grey area, it's high for a 13yo and it's obviously causing laminitis, so average numbers don't mean a thing. This mini has a problem with an ACTH at this level so that's the scenario you deal with. Yes, an ACTH this high will definitely push insulin up, and insulin over 200uIU won't respond entirely to just Metformin when the ACTH is driving it. TC Safe Starch Forage is not safe, esp. for an IR mini, as the ESC+starch levels aren't guaranteed to be below 10% at all times. It also contains added oil (fat at 6%) and iron - neither of which is recommended for any IR individual - and inverted omega 3:6 ratios. Why is CA Trace being fed with the TCSSF - it already has minerals added to it? He also needs to have ground flax and vit E added to his diet. The Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes (which are the Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy Cubes) are a definitely safe option. Still need to add ground flax, plain salt and vit E if feeding these, but that's it. -- Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR) Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge Jan 05, RI Moderator ECIR
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Re: Laminitis in Max
Sherry Morse
Hello Bethany, Welcome to the group! The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. I did see your post on the Hoof Care and Rehab page so I've seen the x-rays and the current trim actually looks better than many we've seen here, however there is absolutely NO sole and the ski tips on both coffin bones are indications that this has been an issue for quite a while, not something that just happened. Were he mine I'd get him in boots, or even EVA foam taped to his feet ASAP so he has some cushion for his feet. There's more information on the correct trim in the "Trim" section of this welcome message, but IMO I would avoid shoes at this point and concentrate on more frequent trimming to help his feet come back into better alignment. If you're able to post the x-rays in a photo album (instructions on how to set up a photo album are in the Case History email you were sent and you can read more in the Wiki here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help) as well as current feet and leg pictures we'll be able to give you more guidance on what needs to happen with his trim going forward to get him in a better place. After getting some boots or foam on his feet to get him more comfortable you then need to address WHY he's laminitic. Arabians are one of the poster child breeds for IR so having your vet come to your farm to draw blood for glucose, insulin and ACTH will give you a better overall view if this is something that needs to be controlled with diet, medication or both (info on this in the "Diagnosis" section below). We do not recommend trailering to the vet as this can cause an increase in insulin and ACTH and we also do not recommend fasting bloodwork as this can cause an artificial decrease in values. Until you know for sure if he is IR or PPID treating him as if he is will probably help - if you are not currently soaking his hay we recommend doing that and no grass at this time since you don't know if it's a trigger for him or not. Keeping him muzzled is a good option if you can't put him on a dry lot or keep him stalled. Please see the "Diet" section below for information on the Emergency diet which you can use until you have bloodwork results back. With all of that said, what follows is a very long and very informative welcome letter so grab a cup of your favorite beverage and be prepared to take notes as you'll probably have more questions after you've read through all of this. Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose. The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs. EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891
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Laminitis in Max
Does anyone in here have experience with Laminitis/Late Stage Founder - specifically in making a full recovery and being sound for trail riding? Trying to gather information/advice/opinions on some x-rays ❤️ Back story: Purchased 16 year old Arabian with adoption contract from SC on Sunday. The gelding had been turned out on tons of grass and wasn't being used. The previous owner had his feet trimmed before I arrived to see him, upon arrival he rode and moved soundly. Trailered down to GA, and took to the vet today for evaluation who ordered x-rays - this is what we see. Now he wasn't lame, he does not cross gravel well (at the vets office) but that's understandable and just started limping today. The vet gave a VERY grim outlook. My farrier gave a better one, a few friends have all pitched in more thoughts, I've also reached out to other groups. He's now clearly in pain on his fronts. This previous owner is not going to take him back and we are trying to get some of our adoption fee returned. Currently I have a lady who wants to do barefoot trims ever few weeks but my farrier wants to do reversed heart bars. There's so much information of shoes vs barefoot and I'm struggling with decisions. He's on a hay/water diet with access to very little grass on a half acre paddock, he came off 50 acres with tall grass and water. Stalling him was very stressful. I'm adding a grazing muzzle for extra precaution. -- Bethany Bryant Thomasville, GA 2020
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Re: Vet visit and treats?
Where are you buying the Ontario Dehy product in BC and... is it the one called "balance"?
Thanks!! -- Pat August 2020 Metro Vancouver BC Canada Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325
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Re: Borderline high ACTH
Alicia,
To my knowledge the only Triple Crown Feed that is safe for an IR equine is the TC Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes. They are actually the same as the Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes. They are definitely a safe low sugar/starch feed. They would be affordable for a mini. You can put them into a bucket, poor hot water onto the cubes, just enough to cover the cubes then lid the bucket. They will expand nicely and are easy for any horse to eat. When I used them I set up the PM bucket to "fluff" in the morning and in the evening I set up the next AM feed. I also didn't quite cover the cubes with water. I poured in the hot water to not quite cover the cubes, put the tight lid on and shook the contents a bit. By the next meal the cubes were expanded out and NOT soggy. My horse didn't care for wet feed. -- Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016 ECIR Group Primary Response White Cloud, Michigan, USA
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Re: Vet visit and treats?
I'm pretty far away. I can ask that she just be given half a flake (2-3 lbs) and no beet pulp or supps and that she is fed promptly at 7. Would that help?
-- Pat August 2020 Metro Vancouver BC Canada Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325
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Borderline high ACTH
I have been trimming a chronically foundered mini for a year and a half- he became sound very quickly and has stayed sound until 5 weeks ago.
He is okay on shavings or in boots but very hesitant on soft ground. He only eats TC Safe Starch forage (hay is too unreliable and owner can't soak), California Trace, and salt, as well as a pre/probiotic prescribed by the vet for chronic free fecal water. Vet assumes whatever is causing his FFW is also linked to the laminitis episode, but even so vet pulled blood. ACTH is 91, insulin is very high (I want to say >200 but I might be mixing him up with 2 other foundered minis I see). Vet put him on metformin, but said ACTH is not unreasonably high given seasonal rise. Could an ACTH of 91 drive up insulin, or is it too low to be the potential cause? Mini is 13 years old. -- -Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast
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Re: Updated Case History/Bloodwork
Hi Dr. Kellon,
She started to show left hind end lameness/weakness at the end of August after being in consistent work and doing well. She also seemed to fatigue easier when in work suddenly. She’s been treated by a chiropractic vet, massage, etc. No change. Tried a few days on Bute, no change. So I decided to have her bloodwork done to see if there was anything going on there. The thyroid level is strange. The selenium is slightly high and Vit. E is on the low end. She is turned out on small dry lot. Hay is being soaked. Let me know if you need any other info. Thank you! -- Jen S. NY 2019 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jen%20and%20Deva
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Re: Target's trim
Hi Kathie,
I’ve learned quite a bit about understanding the X-rays I’ve seen here since I began paying attention. I still feel like a beginner. Before that, I must have been totally illiterate. It occurred to me, when reading your comments about trimming, that maybe nobody has explained what you’re looking at in the X-ray. Do you feel comfortable that you know what the various structures are that you see in the X-ray and where those features might be located in the photo? Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo
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Re: Arby and my first experience with laminitis
Thank you Bonnie for the welcome! I've read through the info twice so far. Some of it has actually sunk in, but most of it I will need to read several more times to absorb. It's all good.
-- Anne Kenny 2020 Tennessee https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anne%20and%20Arby
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Re: Arby and my first experience with laminitis
Sherry: Thank you for your help. I think I have corrected the link to Arby's case history. Yes, there seems to be several things going in with Arby's feet. I am so glad to be a part of this group; give me hope!
Thank you again -- Anne Kenny 2020 Tennessee https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anne%20and%20Arby
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Re: Flyte under the weather
Lecia Martin
Hi Sherry, For the most part, Flyte has always tested in the normal range ACTH. I have learned after 3 bouts of laminitis to monitor his body symptoms and I increase in the fall and drop back in Jan. I was going to get the stim test done this past spring but with ongoing health concerns and Covid I didn't manage it. But I am planning for this coming spring. Upon further research it appears the digestive upset coincided with my new mineral mix. I stopped it this morning, contacted Scott and I will keep him off it for a few days to see if that is the problem. He has had high insulin from the beginning of this journey and since being on Invokana he has remained sound. Thanks for taking a look.
-- Lecia Flyte and Flame Alberta, Canada
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Re: Harley
nicolemillermailbox@...
Hi, I’m going to try and answer both sets of questions here. I hadn’t filled out the weight information on the case history before. I appologize. I just filled it in and uploaded it again. Harley has a tendency to get a little thin because he is an anxious horse and often gets ulcers. When I first got him in August of 2017, he was very thin. He is a rescue horse. It took me two months to get enough weight back on him and heal his bruises before I could even think of putting a saddle on him. His ideal weight is around 900. He is around 920 right now. Maybe a little less. I’d give him a 5.5 body condition rating. I thought the vet put him on the thyroid medication for the IR. I guess it is because he is borderline thyroid. I don’t know. I will ask. The LMF he is on is the low NSC. So that’s good, at least I have that going for him. I’m still confused about giving him an iron supplement. You say IR horses shouldn’t have that since they have iron issues and often have an iron overload. Since he seems to have a tendency for the opposite, can I give him iron? We did not titrate him up on the Prascend. He went straight to 1 mg. The vet wanted to wait another 2 months to take the Cornell Cushing’s test again. I can urge them to do it now if you think that is better. My test results from Cornell have the range at 9-100. You say it is 9-35. Perhaps Cornell changed they way they report their results or perhaps what they are referring to when they say 9-100 is something different than range. Harley is a gelding. I’m sorry I didn’t specify that correctly. The diarrhea was fully completely liquid. It was not liquid farts. That is resolved for the moment however. I got that in control about 3 weeks into the Prascend and pellet diet. There were two big changes that occurred when his buddy had the snake bite. She was taken away in a trailer and he does not like it when horses leave him. He had two other buddies still with him, but he was attached to the mare. The other change is that I immediately stopped letting the horses out in the 20 acre pasture and kept them in the ½ acre paddock. They continued with the same hay, but the 7 hours of pasture time stopped, so the supplemental grass was eliminated immediately. When he had access to the pasture that included the ability to graze, his manure was the best I’ve ever seen. Hopefully that covers everything. My primary question here is, am I missing something? Do his numbers look bad enough to justify this intense lethargy? Could this symptom really be related to Cushing’s ad IR, or should I be pushing for some other diagnostics? --Nicole in CA 2020 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nicole%20and%20Harley
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Help! Short term pain management
Jeanne Q
Please help. Glory had her latest trim yesterday and today she is in the most pain she has been in for a long time. She has been laying down most of the day. This has not been the norm at all for the last 4-5 months. Her RF hoof(capsule loss) has been coming along slowly but surely. She has had a tendon issue on the RF for the last month and Im not sure if it is an injury or possibly it is becoming contracted due to the non use for so long. Not sure what is causing the pain at this point. We did lower her heel a bit more but I booted her with a wedge pad last night to bring her down into her heel more gradual.
I would like to give her something for the pain. I have bute and gabapentin. What would be my best option? She is on J Herb. Thank you! -- Jeanne Q MN 2020 |
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Re: Feeling Defeated
Thanks everyone!
I'm going to try a switch to some vermont blend balancer for a bit - it might be more palatable for him and requires very little added minerals with my current hay. I may also try adding a little more pergolide to see what happens. -- Chemelle Hillsboro, OR 2019 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chemelle%20and%20Andy https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94380
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Re: Target's trim
The radiographs don't lie. The foot is way too long in general, toes miles ahead of the bones, heels underrun. Fig . 11 here has some of the same thing going on, but only at the very bottom of the foot https://aaep.org/sites/default/files/issues/proceedings-12proceedings-In-depth_the_Foot_from_Every_Angle-Eggleston.pdf . The upper 1/2 to 3/4 inch of Target's hoof is trying to grow in tighter too but it can't because of the trim.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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