Date   

Re: Drop in insulin after starting invokana

LJ Friedman
 

gee, I feel like I’m a genius with all my knowledge. The truth is I just copy and paste things Dr. kellon has mentioned. And hope that I get it correct. I am a moderator wanna be LOL
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Drop in insulin after starting invokana

LJ Friedman
 

the goal with invokana  is to drop insulin to normal levels quickly. If I remember correctly with Jesse it was usually over 200 and after the first test while Invokana he dropped to normal levels.
  When his AC TH increased, his insulin levels increased.  AC TH doesn’t  affect insulin levels but it means that the PP ID is not been well controlled, and there are other areas within the pituitary that cause higher insulin when your horse is not well controlled.  . so,  we all need well controlled ppid horses
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Help! Short term pain management

Jeanne Q
 

Thanks Martha. 
I held off until today to see how she was.  She seems a bit better but still laying down alot.  I gave her some paste banamine today that was left over from another horse.  Im crossing my fingers and toes for tomorrow!  But will try the bute if necessary.  Thanks.
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


Re: How Long Does the Veil Last?

Allison
 

Ellen can you please explain why you are making this recommendation? 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray


Re: Borderline high ACTH

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Not your fault, Alicia.

The analysis for the TCSSF isn't guaranteed, so the listed ESC+starch amount is an average. If you look at the bottom of the page, in the fine print, they list the various coefficients of variation for each of the values given. They also mention that different suppliers for various ingredients can also impact the final numbers.

If you feed a product that is already mineral balanced (like the TCSSF or the Balanced Timothy Cubres), there is no need to add another mineral supplement on top of it. Just need to be aware of why you are feeding various things so that you don't end up over supplementing .

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: New Member - Horse Just Diagnosed with PPID

 

Wish there was a love button for your reply Bonnie! 

I went down this road in a BIG way with my friend Pal, who came to us as a two year old registered quarter horse.  

I waited until he was peeing himself to death and couldn't eat enough to maintain his weight, before taking the plunge.  (I'm 65 and take no meds, and didn't want to use them on my friend and risk 'side affects'.)

He lived happily, normal peeing and pooping, normal body weight, and normal feeding amounts until just before his 40th birthday!  ALL BECAUSE OF TREATMENT!!! and this group :)))
--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History


Re: How Long Does the Veil Last?

 

Your case history shows he has been on previcox for 5 weeks … if that is the case, and he is thin, and slow, and not eating well, and just starting the prascend … it might make sense not to ride him for a bit. 
--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History


Re: New Member - Horse Just Diagnosed with PPID

Lorna Cane
 

The dosage protocol bothers me,too.
They say,"In a six month target animal safety study healthy adult horses received Prascend administered orally, once daily, at doses of either 0 mcg/kg, 4 mcg/kg, 6 mcg/kg, or 8 mcg/kg (0X, 1X, 1.5X, or 2X the maximum recommended dose)."

I'm going out on a limb (math is just one of my weaknesses) to say that 8mcg/kg  is not an adequate dose to control the ACTH for many horses. Am I right that it is ~3.6mg for a 1000lb horse ?
We see so many horses here who need much more than that,backed up by blood tests and clinical signs.
Have I missed the details about blood work done on these horses?
I'm happy to be corrected,but when I see that list of adverse reactions , and then look at the doses used, my suspicion is that the horses were being underdosed wrt controlling the ACTH .
As has been noted already, those  symptoms  line up with what so many of us here have experienced with our horses, before getting the PPID under control .
Seven of my boys had PPID , and , with time, needed dosages of pergolide up  in the teens . They were on the meds for  from  10  to  18 years, and died in their 30's,  one in his mid 40's . Age , possible stroke, and  strangulation lipoma  did them in.
Puzzling.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: New Member - Horse Just Diagnosed with PPID

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Lida,

I understand your concerns. You can certainly chose not to treat and I would dare say there are many PPID horses out there which are not treated. The problem with that is the longer you wait, the harder it becomes to effectively control it. Uncontrolled PPID leads to immune dysfunction (allergies developing, poor healing, higher susceptibility to infections - sometimes fatal), abnormal body temperature regulation, breakdown of muscle and tendon /ligament tissues, insulin resistance to full blown type II diabetes and laminitis.

Side effects with treatment are not inevitable. A month of using APF plus gradual dose introduction usually avoids or minimizes side effects. The most common side effect by far is reduced appetite.

If you try it, you should give him a month after reaching full dose to adapt. It really hasn't been studied but I wouldn't expect any serious consequences to stopping after a short course.

You could also consider not starting now but waiting until December or January to retest him and see if he stays elevated all year. If he doesn't, you could treat only during the seasonal rise period but most people find the repeated testing needed to be more of a problem than just keeping them on all year.

Was he fasted before the testing?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Borderline high ACTH

Alicia Harlov
 

Thank you both! Vet recommended TCSSF and I did a quick check of analysis and I thought it WAS below 10% combined. Darn. 
The owner is in her 80s and doesn't have hot water in the barn but does have cold water. I can likely recommend the Timothy balance cubes (I have a few other horses on this as a sole feed). Since he was on hay prior to this laminitic attack, owner already had been feeding the CT. 


--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast


Re: TRH Stimulation Results

emma@...
 

Hi Lavinia

Thanks for your reply  I will look at the links and try and get my trimmer to come earlier (booked in for about 2 weeks time). I know she felt she couldn’t move too quickly with him, and has been trying to keep him comfortable, which has worked up until the last couple of trims.

Sorry, it’s the Pro Laminae + he is on.


--
Emma M in East Sussex, UK 2020
Case History for Tom: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emma and Tom
Photo Album for Tom: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249458


Re: Help! Short term pain management

 

I would suggest bute.  You mentioned ‘short term’ and it doesn’t sound like you’re trying to control laminitis pain.  Gabapentin is not thought to be well absorbed by the horse.  I know it’s been prescribed to me for a pony without much effect.  My dog is getting it now, awaiting knee surgery.  I’m not sure how well it controls his pain - an NSAID did better - but it seems to help keep him less reactive.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Trimmer in Shingle Springs Ca. Area

Jennifer Boydstun
 

Would anyone know of a trimmer that would service the Shingle Springs, Ca. area
--
Jennifer Boydstun
Folsom, Ca.
For T-Birds Windrunner- Tennessee Walker
8-5-18
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20T-Birds%20Case%20History

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=89742


Re: Target's trim

 

I agree, Sandra.  And a trimmer with a knife between you and your horse is much more difficult to confront than a group of imaginary people on a website.  I have no idea whether Lavinia would have time but maybe.  Maybe it’s something she already does on occasion if asked.   Lavinia does offer a markup service which others have used very successfully.  They’re posted here and I like to read them over to learn from them.  You need to have a receptive trimmer, of course, and I’m not sure what she can do with photos of print outs.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: How Long Does the Veil Last?

Allison
 

Thank you Nancy that helps a lot.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray


Re: New Member - Horse Just Diagnosed with PPID

 

Hi Lida,I looked over your list of side effects and thought Wow!  Most of those symptoms are ones that my horse, Logo, exhibited before being diagnosed PPID.  After being on pergolide for 15 years, he did die as a result of colic at age 31.  There’s no way I could call that a side effect.  Yet, in those desperate moments, the thought did cross my mind.  Others of them are typical of the veil that can often result after starting them on the drug.

I believe if you are using Prascend and you notice anything concerning and report back to the manufacturer, they are obligated to report that as a side effect without further research.  Many new users are not getting adequate information about what to expect when using the drug and are unsurprisingly concerned.  Some of their reports are obviously from the veil and others are from still not having enough pergolide to do the job.  Some might have appeared whether or not the drug had been started.


I would not use a list like this to make my decisions.  Every drug has one.  If I read it before using the drug, I would undoubtedly be on the lookout for one or more of those symptoms.  Kind of like a medical student who knows just enough to find the side effects list but not enough to understand its significance.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Target's trim

Sandra Draibye
 

Lavinia,

I think it is very hard for horse owners to reconcile such different opinions - Kathie has a farrier telling her one thing and ECIR telling her something totally different.  If the farrier is open to a discussion, Lavinia - would you be open to speaking with him?  This is just one of several instances where I have seen this - and it puts horse owners in a very stressful place.  I don't think it can be resolved without open, respectful debate.  Horses for sure would be the winners.  
--
Sandra on Vancouver Island, B.C.
December 2018


Re: TRH Stimulation Results

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Emma,

Thanks for adding the most recent trim pix.

Tom's toes are getting longer out ahead of where they need to be, some flaring is increasing and his heels are running further under. It appears as if the trimming is concentrated on the bottom of the feet rather than on bringing the flaring inward and backing up the toes in the horizontal plane. I totally agree there is nothing available to take off the bottom of these feet but there is quite a bit that needs adjusting around the perimeter.

Definitely would advise against trying to peripheral load him as that is the exact opposite of what he needs and will only lead to further strain on his already compromised laminar connections. Have a read here for more info:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Coronet.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

Putting him in boots and pads is an excellent idea. You may need to experiment with pads to fins what he finds most comfortable. The most important thing is going to be to get his trim optimized.

Are you feeding the Pro Laminae or the Pro Laminae + product?

Although his adiponectin levels suggest he is prone to EMS, his current insulin/glucose levels don't show he has developed any issues yet. Keeping him on an IR appropriate diet should help him to maintain that status.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Uckele Ubalance IR, Glycocemic eq and Ubalance Foundation

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Wondering if i should send an email for an updated request for hay analysis based on my latest hay test and current supps? 

Tia Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: How Long Does the Veil Last?

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Alison, I noticed Vinnie's inflammatory response also increased when we started prascend and also he did have some central line edema from the sheath. I figured it could have been a histamine response to mosquitos he has some allergies so I kept an eye on it and it did eventually go down. I was using 8 benadryl a day at the time to minimize response and itchiness from mosquito bites.  The are crazy pur here right now in California where I live.

I did make a mental note though that it seemd to correspond with adding in prascend and it showed up at about day 3 of titrating on .25 dose.

Just wanted to share my experience in case it helps.
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

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