Date   

Re: APF Primer for Newbies

Lorna Cane
 

Lida, why not talk to Dr. Van Noy,at Auburn Labs. He founded the company,and is very approachable,or at least he was years ago when I spoke to him.
 877.661.3505    

It says this on their site....."APF Pro was introduced to address the specific issues facing the top equine athletes – immune support, gastric health, muscle building, energy, endurance, and recovery." 

But I know that doesn't answer your questions.
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: APF Primer for Newbies

Lida
 

Thanks everyone for the info so far.

I am still not sure where to start. I want to order APF today. When I go to Valley vet the regular APF is actually more expensive than the APF Pro which has me confused. Is the dosage for APF Pro higher or something? Everyone is saying it is more expensive, but that is not what I am observing. Since I can't find dosing info from the manufacturer website, it is hard to know why everyone is saying the Pro is so much more expensive. Even purchasing from Auburn Labs directly, the difference is only $5, which does not seem significant, which is why I am wondering if you have to give more of Pro than the regular to get the same effect? My horse has a history of ulcers as well, though he has not had visible signs of them for many, many years. I think he has definitely mellowed out in his old age. So maybe the APF Pro won't hurt especially if I can get it at a lower price than the regular APF?

I wonder if it would be helpful to do some type of survey as far as dosing to see what is the best recommendation for a starting point or what has worked best for most horses. Even in this thread, I am seeing posts from 2 or 3 ml to 10 ml. As I said, I know every horse will be different, but it would be helpful to know where to start and then adjust from there. Is it best to just start a high dose to avoid the veil. Or better to start lower and adjust up?

To me, not wanting to eat, being lethargic are signs of not feeling good. So I would rather prevent that from happening at all, but I also don't want to throw money away.

Thanks everyone!

--
Lida
Indiana
September 2020
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lida%20and%20Doc


Urgent advice please. Cadet's new lab values are much worse.

riggslippert@...
 

Hello,

I will update Cadet's CH but I wanted to get some advice asap, as I am very worried about his new lab results.  I started him on the APF Pro on 9/12/20 and on Prascend 0.5 mg QD on 9/13/20.  By 9/15/20, he was refusing to eat the APF on his food, so I stopped it temporarily; he was still getting jiaogulan at that time.  On 9/17, I increased the Prascend to 1 mg QD and his appetite for meals dropped the next day.  I switched the carrier from TBC to Stabul 1, then Fiber Force, then started syringing the APF Pro.  I had to stop giving jiaogulan and ALCAR for him to start eating his meals again.  He has been eating hay all along, but his attitude and activity declined as soon as he started the 1 mg Prascend dose.  His feet seem sensitive on pavement and gravel; he wears boots for daily hand walks, for which he has no enthusiasm.  His pulses have remained normal (my farrier agreed and did not have any concerns at our last trim).  I have not observed him to be PU/PD, but he lives outside 24/7 and I only see him for a few hours each day.  He has not lost weight.

Cadet's hay was tested ESC 5.6%, starch 1% in August.  I did not do a full analysis because we thought we were going to move him at the time.  That is no longer the case.  He has zero access to grass.  He receives the Prascend in a small piece of carrot.  I cannot think of any other sources of sugar/starch in his diet.  I plan to switch back to the TBC for his carrier immediately.  He is refusing to eat the jiaogulan and ALCAR in anything safe I can think of to mask it (distiller's grains, carrot baby food).  I was going to try peanut butter next.

His labs were rechecked at Cornell on 10/8/20 after overnight access to hay.  I collect, process, and ship my own samples, so I know they are handled correctly.

ACTH 38.9 pg/mL (9-35 mg/dL)
Glucose 197 mg/dL (71-122 mg/dL)
Insulin >200 uIU/mL (10-40 uIU/mL)

I am trying to breathe, as is always advised here, but devastated by these results.  The Prascend was supposed to help him, and his ACTH is down significantly, but his insulin and glucose are so much worse.  I am very concerned about his ongoing quality of life, assuming I will have to increase the Prascend dosage and start him on metformin or Invokana.  I already feel our relationship is suffering with the aversive things I am doing to him.  Could he be one of the rare horses that cannot tolerate Prascend?  I so much appreciate having this forum to help me decide what is best for him, thank you in advance for any wisdom!

--
Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102




Re: Is there a link between analgesics and elevated glucose or ACTH levels?

Mary Ann
 

She's fine for the dental exam, she really doesn't need to be sedated for that in my opinion. It's just those darn needles. She will probably accept a blindfold rather easily because she has to wear a UV eye mask 24/7. My only concern is the blindfold will have to come off if the vet needs to do nerve blocks to the left eye to check if the corneal abrasion has cleared up completely. I've tried using positive and negative reinforcement techniques to put medication in her eye after the SPL was removed and I'm having some success. She's one smart little mare and she remembers voices, vehicles, smells, sounds and certain movements/touches.
--
Mary Ann & Rosie - Nova Scotia, Canada - Joined August 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252134
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20Ann%20and%20Rosie


Flame labs & balancer question

 

I was a little late on getting Flame titrated up to his Fall Pergolide 5mg dose & getting his labs drawn, but I just got results back:
Glucose 108 mg/dl, ACTH 13.2 pg/ml, insulin 56.97 uiu/ml & leptin 5.19 ng/ml. (I put them in his case history too so you can see the trends.) 

I gave pergolide & metformin @ 6am. Also, at 6am Flame was fed his normal soaked bermuda w/ his mineral mix, salt & ground flax sprinkled on it (as usual) & he had enough that he was able to eat all the way up until I drew his blood @ 10am. I did not exercise him before his blood draw. Could someone please look @ his labs & tell me how I'm doing? I'm happy with his ACTH but not so happy with the insulin that appears to be creeping up. Is the Metformin starting to not work? 

Last year I tested a batch of hay from a local feed store, did a custom mineral mix & I've been feeding that, but I'm almost out. I live in a non hay growing state & all our feed stores are basically distributors for hay which is grown in other states all over the west part of the country & then shipped in Las Vegas to be sold. I talked to a couple of the feed store managers today & they sell the batches of hay that they get within 2 weeks usually. So I've decided that testing hay is a waste of money for me, as I can't afford to test several batches every month. I have been looking at the list of acceptable ration balancers & need help picking one. Since I don't know where the hay I feed comes from what do I do about manganese & selenium? Do I pick balancers that have them in them? Or buy the manganese & selenium separately & feed them? Thanks in advance for help & suggestions!
--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

 

Would APF be something that might provide some benefit to his lengthy trip? 
 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Re: dr kellon please; blood work very different, now reported as not IR

Daisy Shepherd
 

THANK YOU DR. KELLON for all of your help  and the many words of wisdom from you and the ecir group.  tiko's case hx is now updated  to include all recent labs.  in the chemistry profile there are 2 elevated test that i do not recognize ( SDH, GLDH),   will google for info.  DR KELLON,  DO YOU STILL SUGGEST THE TRH TEST   be done in the winter.  thank you, daisy and tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: APF Primer for Newbies

Buzz
 

Hi Bonnie! My horse has recently been diagnoaed with PPID and Im still learning! However, I found the APF has made a dramatic difference with my mare. I initially started her on .5mg pergolide and no APF as I followed my vets suggestion.  She is an OTTB and super picky! Immediately she went off her food and started dropping wt.  I was beginning to be really worried with winter coming. I decided to call Auburn and spoke to a very helpful vet who reassured me APF is very safe. He said some people start at 10 ml and work down til they find the horse is leveling off with the "vail" and some start off with 2 or 3ml and increase until they see improvement. Also, I used the APF (green bottle) initially as a friend had some available. After talking with the Auburn vet, I ordered the APF Pro as my mare has a history of ulcers and he suggested that for her situation.  It is pricey, but it really helped my old gal to feel better. I am gradually titrating up every 4 or 5 days as I increase her pergolide dosage in .25mg increments. It really seems to be a balancing act to support them while adjusting to the pergolide. Good luck with your horse. Hope this helped you a little!

--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Re: APF Primer for Newbies

 

Bonnie, my guess is that it doesn’t matter which you use to prevent a pergolide veil.  The Regular seems to work fine.  The others have additional ingredients which are apparently not critical for our purposes.  When I first learned of APF, my horse had already been started on pergolide, with a minimal veil.  A few years later, Logo went through a bad fall because the rise got ahead of me and I was using it as an aid in his recovery.  

A question Lida might ask later would be about administration.  I always give it by oral syringe.  It has a slightly unusual taste, like a tonic.  Logo loved it, which had a lot to do with my continuing to give it to him.  Some of my other guys think it tastes nasty and I would not consider adding it to their feed.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

Allison
 

Oh Lin you give me hope 😢 I’m just so anxious that we won’t make it to surgery. Next Monday seems worlds away. Every day his weight seems to drop a little more, and sometimes he doesn’t finish his feed. He knows exactly what to do and trots around me so dutifully for an hour each day to keep the swelling at bay. But I’m no fool, I know that infection is still there and it scares me.

We are going to Milton Equine Hospital, which is just outside of Toronto. The surgeons name is Benjamin Dubois. He’s really a very kind man, and has answered every call and every question. 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

Lin Reuther
 

Hi Allison, My dear Haflinger had the same disease, and I tried all the ways you mentioned of treating it, with no success. Finally got a new vet who said that surgery was a great option. I live in Vermont, and turned out that an equine surgeon in northern Vermont was a published expert in penile squamous cell carcinoma. Long story short, I told my horse there, and he ended up having to have his penis amputated because the cancer was so far advanced and invasive (I had been fighting it for years). Completely successful surgery - my guy figured out how to pee “out the back” right away, came home in 2 days, and we went on to have years more together.
I am wondering at which hospital you are going to have the surgery performed? Would love to hear it was the same one as I used.
Please keep us posted, and feel free to PM me if you want more information.

Lin Reuther and Charlie (over the rainbow now 😢)
Vermont


Re: APF Primer for Newbies

Bonnie Eddy
 

So which one is best, APF or APF Pro?
Going to start 2 new ones on the PPID journey.
--
Bonnie with Racham (over the rainbow) from Southern California, Nov/2016

Case History
Racham's Photos 
Ω 

 


Re: APF Primer for Newbies

LJ Friedman
 

I just started Jesse and apf on my way to bring him back to compounded pergolide . I’ll be using 10 ML once a day for five days and then start the compound pergolide  again at day 5  and continue for 5 more days  .  genius.  I just thought I might as well continue the apf after the start of the compounded pergolide   
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

Allison
 

Next Monday October 19. We drive down Sunday. It's an 8 hr drive. 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Re: Is there a link between analgesics and elevated glucose or ACTH levels?

Bonnie
 

A trainer who also did tooth floating came to our town. "I don't use drugs or gags," he said. "I sing to them." Grasping the tongue of a pony named Pro, he started work, singing 'Pro, Pro, Whaddayou know, It's time to work so here we go..." The astonished pony listened to the song till the floating was done. No problem. The other horses had songs with their names in them too.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Re: APF Primer for Newbies

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I can tell you that this helps me too because I had issues with the veil with both Summer and Vinnie. And each were a little different in their response to APF. 

Summer after failing to start APF (regular) on the initial attempt ended up going off all her supplements and would only eat hay. Then I stopped pergolide and after putting her on APF and waiting 10 days to restart pergolide she got loose stools after restarting on a super low dose of 0.125. So I added absorb-all as per Dr. Kellons recommendation and slowly titrateed up to her dose of 0.5. Knock wood she is doing great, and I am only giving 6mls  of APF per day 1 time and my goal is to see if I can taper her off APF now.

Vinnie i learned from Summer, started him on APF before beginning pergolide, but he developed the veil after titrating up to 0.5 from a dose of 0.25 after he was on that dose for about 10 days. He stopped eating his AM mashy.  So back down we went to 0.25 and increased APF from 3ml 2x per day to 5ml 2x per day and he slowly has started eating his am mash again. 

I just ordered APF pro based on this thread (thank you) to see if that helps him when I titrate back up to 0.5.

Thanks Nancy
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: APF Primer for Newbies

 

Hi Lida,
Your concerns seem valid to me.  I always hesitate trying to answer questions on APF, even though I’ve used bottles of it, because I’m not sure there there are any absolute answers to your questions.  I agree that an APF Primer for Newbies is in order.  


I began with APF Pro because I felt my horse needed ‘extra’ help.  At that time there was no Plus.  Most people use Regular because it’s a significant expense even for that and it does the job.

I, too, did not know what dose to give so I contacted Auburn Labs and I think they told me 8ml for my oversized horse.  For smaller versions, I have used as little as 5 ml.  I have no idea how much it actually takes to get the job done. 

I started it 2-3 days before adjusting pergolide.  However, in one instance I started it after noticing the veil.  The veil lifted but I don’t know if it was the APF or just that it would have lifted regardless.

I actually kept my horse on it for quite awhile but I usually tell people to keep them on it until they reach the dose they are aiming for and then a few days after.  I have nothing to base that on other than other people’s experience.
If everything goes according to plan, you will not notice anything resembling a veil (loss of appetite, dopiness) as you titrate the dose up to your goal.  If a veil generally starts 2-5 days after starting pergolide (2 days, in my experience), I would think you would be safe discontinuing it 2-5 days after reaching the goal.  The initial goal might not be enough so, if you decide on a pergolide increase, you would want to start the process again.  I usually didn’t need APF for these increases but each horse responds differently.   If APF doesn’t prevent a veil, I’m not sure that more APF would help

When I switched Logo from pergolide to cabergoline, I did not pretreat with APF, rationalizing that he was already on such a large dose of pergolide, he would not need it.  I was wrong and he had a very dramatic veil.  When I started him on APF, I told my barn helpers I was giving him a ‘magic potion‘ as that’s literally what it seems to be.  Magic is a bit outside of science, or at least science hasn’t caught up with it yet, and that’s a bit what it seems like with APF.  If you don’t do it correctly, and I have no idea what that would be, the veil generally dissipates on its own or you can stop the pergolide until the horse appears normal again and then try again.  That is generally the exception rather than the rule.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Is there a link between analgesics and elevated glucose or ACTH levels?

Lorna Cane
 

You've probably tried Rescue Remedy, Mary Ann, but just in  case.....

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: feed question post laminitis

Cherie Bandrowski
 

Regarding getting an analysis of the hay Lexi will be getting this winter, the hay she gets (she is boarded) is from 12 different fields and the hay from each is different.  
--
Cherie Bandrowski in SE Michigan 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cherie%20and%20Lexi
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254084


Re: Is there a link between analgesics and elevated glucose or ACTH levels?

Mary Ann
 

Thank you for the blindfold suggestion Dr. Kellon. I'm going to give that a try during the next vet visit this coming Friday. She has had an aversion to needles from the time she was a foal. I was told by the breeder that she was seen as a weanling by a "small animal" vet who handled her very badly and she's never forgotten that trauma. We've tried nose and skin twitches but never a blind fold. As soon as she sees the vet's vehicle driving in my yard she begins to get agitated unless she's pre-treated with dorm gel. We've tried all types of behaviour modification techniques and I'm sorry to report that we've had no success with any of them. 

--
Mary Ann & Rosie - Nova Scotia, Canada - Joined August 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252134
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20Ann%20and%20Rosie

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