Date   

Re: Update on founder case and question on how to proceed

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Leptin is a "nice to know", but ECIR's official standpoint is that it is not diagnostic so you can save your money if you wish.

I hear you on the frustration he has.  Have you tried a Parallax treat ball?  I put about 2 cups of hay cubes in it and my horse gets most of it right away, the last 1 or 2 cubes can take hours to get out!  My horse often goes back to it to try it again and again when he's bored and has nothing left to eat.  Just one small thing you can do.  I'm sure there are lots of other ideas out there...

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Flame labs & balancer question

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Beth,

Not Kirsten here but that <2mg was referencing additional selenium, not manganese.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: How Long Does the Veil Last?

tosborne@...
 

My poor Snickers is still "off" his prepared feed.  Just to recap:  Sept 29/20 began Prascend 1/2 tablet, the next day he left behind about 1/3 of his prepared beetpulp, probiotic, hempseed oil, OminoTrace. Day 3, left 1/2 of the feed, and has continued to eat less and less.  However, his appetite for his hay appears undiminished and he is not losing any weight. We thought at first that it was due to the OminoTrace Mad Barn because it certainly stinks.  We removed all supplements.  We tried soaked hay cubes, various combinations of hay cubes & beetpulp.  We thought we had the problem solved when we tried adding SuperFibra Nature.  For 3 days he ate well, then gradually less and now for the past 3 days he has refused to even try the feed we make.  Today is Day 15 of Prascend at 1/2 tablet, the goal being to get him to 1 tablet.

I can't get APF anywhere in Ontario or Canada for that matter. 

To make matters more confusing, he has developed a bad abscess in the right front and is in a great deal of pain.  I suspect that pain could be contributing to him being off his feed however, he never lost his appetite during his laminitic spells.

My vet is still saying to stick it out on the 1/2 tablet of Prascend because she is concerned about the ACTH of 111 (so am I)

I'm wondering just how much longer we should let this continue before stopping the Prascend?  And when you stop Prascend, how long does it typically take for the appetite to return to normal?
--
Teresa O in Ontario, Canada 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Teresa%20and%20Snickers


Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

tosborne@...
 

Allison, Milton Equine Hospital are amazing people.  Sonseeahray will be in great hands.  Now, how about you?  How are you traveling down and where will you be staying?  I am only about 45 min away from Milton.  If  we didn't have to be worrying about Covid19, I would be bringing you into my home and taking care of you while your horse is in surgery, but I have a husband at high risk for Covid complications.  However, if you would like to meet for moral support, I can do that, appropriately masked, etc.
--
Teresa O in Ontario, Canada 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Teresa%20and%20Snickers


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

LJ Friedman
 

A boarding facility has their people working very fast. Weighing hay each individual time is probably too much work. My thought is that an experienced staff member can probably guesstimate good enough the amount of hay? Secondly, you can weigh out the hay for a week at a time?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Update on founder case and question on how to proceed

Mara
 

Thanks, Kristen. I will test blood again. I have not had leptin done on rechecks. Is that necessary?

Good to know on the thyo-l. Hard on the hay. I have tried many configurations and uses of hay nets. With basically no turnout, other than a tiny pen, he is angry and destructive. Slowing him down has been a challenge. I share his pain.
--
Mara
NJ
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mara%20and%20Enzo/?ord=dirname&d=asc


Re: PPID without IR and Grazing

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I think it is very unlikely you will have a problem with Babe being on grass as he has only been diagnosed for PPID and because Thoroughbreds are usually not IR at baseline.  As long as his PPID is tightly controlled year-round, his insulin should stay low.  You will want to check his ACTH and insulin in the spring before he goes on grass, and again in late summer/early autumn at a minimum.

One request:  could you please add a note to your Case History that the bloodwork done this summer was fasted?  Maybe put it in brackets next to the numbers/dates?  It really changes how we look at Babe's results, for example that insulin is too high to be normal for a fasted test but if we don't know it was fasted it looks like a very healthy insulin level.  Hopefully once the PPID is treated the insulin will drop, too, that's where additional testing will help you.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Hypermotility and abdominal spasms

TERRI JENNINGS
 

My vet came out yesterday. He said the spasms may not have anything to do with her GI tract but could indicate inflammation in another organ. He gave her Buscopan to stop the spasms but it didn’t work. He also took blood to see if it could be an electrolyte imbalance since she hasn’t been eating well and therefore doesn’t get all of her supplements.  Does anyone else have any ideas?  She is not in any distress but the spasms continue. No other symptoms except not eating and wanting to eat shavings. 

Thank You
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Re: Update on founder case and question on how to proceed

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Regarding the jiaogulan, it really does speed up hoof growth so as long as you can keep on top of that with more frequent trimming I think it's a good supplement to keep post-laminitic horses on.  It increases circulation in the hoof,  which in turn speeds healing (and growth!).

ACTH can be tested again after the winter solstice.  But it would be more useful for you to know how high ACTH is during the seasonal rise.  If it's more elevated than normal, you might have a case of early PPID that can be treated with pergolide during the rise in order to keep Enzo's insulin better controlled.

The Thyro-L should Kickstart weight loss.  I'd use it as a last resort because I don't like how it changes thyroid function over time, then they have to be weaned off of it slowly.  I think 17 lbs is a bit on the high side in hay considering how inactive he is now, so reducing that is where I would start.  You could try reducing it to 15 lbs/day (about 1.5% of current weight), or just by 1 lb/day and watch to see if you notice a change.  I know we generally advise feeding whichever is greater of 2% of ideal or 1.5% of current BW, but if I fed 2% of ideal my horse would be overweight.  I keep his hay at 1.5% of ideal, then adjust if needed when we are exercising more.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Soaking Hay in the Winter

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Hi Kim,

While seeing a bit of rib is not a bad thing (a BCS of 4.5-5 is a good place to be with an IR equine; most of us are conditioned to think heavier is looks healthier when it often is not), going in to winter you are probably worried about him needing a little extra to keep warm?  To put on weight we generally recommend starting with feeding 2% of ideal body weight in hay (so 20 lbs/day if your equine should be 1000 lb), and adjusting as needed depending on activity level and whether or not you see weight gain.  The Thyro-L is a "weight-loss" booster (that's all it does, it will not improve insulin sensitivity) so if you feel your mule has no weight left to lose you should talk with your vet about stopping it.  If he's been on it for a long time you will need to taper it off so his thyroid can get back to full functioning again.

You can try replacing the Purina grain with a safer option, like rinsed-soaked-rinsed beet pulp or Triple Crown Timothy Balance hay cubes, if you are just trying to add calories.

Please do get a Case History posted along with copies of blood work, hay analyses, trim photos, radiographs, etc (if you have them) so we can advise you further.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The body condition effects actually sound more like PPID but I see your ACTH is well controlled. What is the protein content of your hay? NDF and ADF? There can be muscle loss when they are frankly diabetic but his glucose has been well controlled for a while now.  I would try:

1. Give him free choice soaked hay
2. Stop the Mountain Sunrise - increase ODTB instead and feed moistened if you can get them to do that
3. Gradually increase flax up to 1 lb / day to boost protein
4.  Start 3 scoops/day of Uckele Tri-Amino

How often do you deworm?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Falki's Recent Blood Work - Request Feedback

Connie Proceviat
 

Good Morning Dr. Kellon,

I will start him on Prascend ASAP. When I tried it in the past, he was already sore when I began. Would it have any affect on his lameness if started prior to being sore?
I give him Jiaogulan in his feed year around but haven't given AAKG in a long while. Should I try adding AAKG as well during the cold weather?
Interestingly, his hooves are no longer cold to the touch like they were when we first started the ECIR protocol so we have made progress in that regard.
Thank you for your feedback. 
--
Connie Proceviat
2013 Manitoba, Canada
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Connie%20and%20Falki/Falki%20Case%20History.doc.pdf


Effects of long term high insulin levels

 

Could someone explain the effects of long-term high insulin levels to me? Is it more than just increasing the risk for a laminitic episode? 

This came up in discussion with my BO last night. We are trying to safely put weight on Flame. I’m trying to implement weighing a set amount of hay to soak and feed to him daily. I had thought that each meal was being weighed by the worker at the barn but just  found out that it hasn’t been being weighed for a very very long time. He’s just guessing by feel how much to feed. So I will now be weighing each meal myself. The BO compared the soaked hay to pablum & questioned Flame’s quality of life because of it & because of his body condition. He’s a typical EMS/IR/diabetic horse with muscle wasting at the top line, ribs showing & a little pot belly. Flame very rarely doesn’t finish his meals and he attacks his hay nets with gusto. He also really enjoys the TC balanced timothy cubes & the Mountain Sunrise timothy pellets. He is sound & enjoys getting out for rides & lunges every day. I even showed him last month. He is happy & cheerful, he doesn’t hide in the back of his pen or have a bad attitude. I was honestly shocked by the conversation last night and just need help explaining in a little more detail to the BO why he looks the way he does & how the high insulin levels/EMS can course that. Thanks in advance! 

--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




PPID without IR and Grazing

Anna Dolly
 

good morning, y'all,
I have a question and I hope it makes as much sense as it seemed to in the middle of the night. Babe's diagnosis of PPID is mild, and vet and I are both hoping it's seasonal, but don't know that yet.
I have substituted the alfalfa mash with orchard/timothy mash (much to both my horses' disappointment). They both get Triple Crown Senior and I'm splitting their rations into 3 meals, rather than the 2 they used to get. All their hay (brome) is steamed, due to Babe's heaves, and they get as much as they care to eat.
My question is about grazing. They are currently on a lot that's close to an acre and while I seeded it this spring, prior to all this abscess and laminitis and PPID business was known, little came up because the 1/2 acre pen I had them in flooded and I had to put them back on this lot. There is some greenery, mostly weeds, but they do find a blade or two to nibble on occasionally. 
With no IR in the picture, next year would it be safe to let them graze on the 1/2 acre some? I've always been careful about acclimating them when they've had none at all, and I wouldn't just turn them out and walk off, it would be limited, both because it would need to be and a half acre that's only about half grass wouldn't last long anyhow.
thoughts, please?
--
Anna Dolly
Keyser, WV
Sept. 2020
Babe's Case History
Babe's Photo Album


Re: Flame labs & balancer question

 

Thanks Nancy! Those are much better prices than I found!
--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




Re: Diana labs

 

Thank you for your replies. I’ll retest in December & see if meds need to be adjusted. I’ll also work on hoof pictures. Thanks!
--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




Re: Flame labs & balancer question

Nancy Kitchen
 

Hi Beth
You ask about Invokana pricing, one of the members here recommended PriceProPharmacy.com  I get my horse's Invokana there.  Good service and the price is $ 270 for 90 days.  and I have them add tracking to the shipment.  This medication has helped lower my horse's insulin when nothing else would.  All the best to you and your horses.
--
Nancy K
Smoke and Tucky
November 2018, Southeast, MA

Smoke Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Smoke
Smoke Photo Album:    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94122
Tucky Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Tuck 
Tucky Photo Album:


Re: Falki's Recent Blood Work - Request Feedback

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

ACTH is considerably higher than it was at this time 5 years ago. The safest course would be to start Prascend now then taper off after it starts to warm up and retest. Alternatively, you could retest late November, early December to see if he needs it. Insulin isn't high enough at the moment to trigger an acute flare up of laminitis but he likely does have smoldering damage that can lead to that cold sensitivity. Do you use Jiaogulan and AAKG then?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Diana labs

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I would wait until December to retest or change. Her insulin is basically normal and not likely to be the reason for foot tenderness. Try to get some hoof photos up.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Update on founder case and question on how to proceed

Mara
 

Thanks, Bonnie. I have the hay tested throughout the past 10 years. It always comes back low s/s. However, we get deliveries every 2-3 months, so I test here and there. Not ideal, but I board him.

My fault not to test ACTH. What would be the earliest to retest, if I want to pass seasonal rise time?

Try ALCAR during seasonal rise? Stay on J-herb if no longer in pain?

So many questions...lol

Best,
Mara


--
Mara
NJ
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mara%20and%20Enzo/?ord=dirname&d=asc

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