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Re: Update on founder case and question on how to proceed

Candice Piraino
 

You have some great feedback Mara!

Wanted to add maybe something else to slow him down. Have you thought about or tried 2 slow feeding nets with hay- doubled I mean? He would have to really work at it if he had to go through 2 nets. Might be worth a shot? And make sure the holes of net are small 1 inch!

--

Candice 

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @ www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: Compounded Pergolide instead of Prascend

Candice Piraino
 

Hi Cynthia!

I started out on Prascend like you as well for both of my horses until I found ECIR- because let me tell you it got expensive QUICK! LOL mine both get 2.75mg! 

I utilize Pet Health and have been very pleased with them. I have an autoship and don't need to worry about a thing! They work with my vet for refills and do all the calculations necessary when I switched over from Prascend, which was great!

Here is their website: https://www.pethealthpharmacy.com

Super affordable now for me, where as Prascend was not for 2 horses on that dose. 

Your vet will need to write you a prescription though- which is generally the sticky part! I hope everything works out in your favor and that you have a smooth transition!
--

Candice 

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @ www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: PPID without IR and Grazing

Anna Dolly
 

Thank you, Kirsten,
I did not know that his insulin was considered high due to him being fasting at test time.  I will go add that note!
--
Anna Dolly
Keyser, WV
Sept. 2020
Babe's Case History
Babe's Photo Album


shoes or no shoes for lame horse

renee lefthand
 


--
Good day everyone 
My 2 mares are lame again this fall for the  last few weeks. One already has cushings no shoes went up to 2 pills and diet change  ..... took one mare to vet  because she got severely lame and got xrays and shoes because of vet and farrier recommendations and we probably waited too long! 
We got blood work and diagnosed cushings and IR (I believe) she started on half pill; needs one but stopped eating so dropped back to half for now. My vets never seem to never give us copies of blood work gonna have to ask again to upload and xrays for that matter . My question should I have my other mare xrays and shoes ? 
She is not as bad but is like this every fall. I am worried about rotation but I do not know if I should do shoes on her too ? She does not tolerate shoes very well we tried them last year not much improvement so did not put them back on and she also needs to be traq. each time which I do not like either. 
I am guessing I better get her xrays done but they will insist on shoes etc. 
I have also changed their diets since and they are both heavy and cannot be excercised due to their pain level.
Hopefully I get the copies I need to upload !!!!  

Renee SD 2020


Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

Valeree Smith
 

Allison,

My heart goes out to you.  I have gone through 4 colic surgeries over the years.....alone.....And I actually prefer it that way.

I think it's part of what makes horse people 'tough' if you will.  We do what we have to do even when we aren't sure we can do it.

Many people thinking of you and your boy and hoping for the best possible outcome.

Valeree
SoCal
09/03



_._,_._,_

--
Valeree Smith
Southern CA
2003


Re: Flame labs & balancer question

 


Compounded Pergolide instead of Prascend

Cynthia F
 

I started my mare on Prascend on July 24th, and slowly increased the dosage to 1 mg without any side effects. In the files it mentions using compounded pergolide as it's cheaper but I haven't been able to find any available at the sites listed. Does anyone have a pergolide supplier that I can contact? If I can get it cheaper than Prascend I would definitely like to go that route!
TIA
--
Cynthia F & Chicky
Cedar Rapids, IA
2019


Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

Allison
 

Oh Teresa you are the sweetest. I am renting a truck, borrowing a trailer, loading up and heading out alone. I am terrified,  but I can do hard things and I will do anything for him. I can leave the trailer at the hospital and stay with my friend in cambridge. I think honestly I want to be alone in this but I appreciate the offer so much. The emotion is overwhelming to be honest.

Blood was pulled today to make sure his internals are all ok before going under the knife. 
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Re: Update on founder case and question on how to proceed

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Leptin is a "nice to know", but ECIR's official standpoint is that it is not diagnostic so you can save your money if you wish.

I hear you on the frustration he has.  Have you tried a Parallax treat ball?  I put about 2 cups of hay cubes in it and my horse gets most of it right away, the last 1 or 2 cubes can take hours to get out!  My horse often goes back to it to try it again and again when he's bored and has nothing left to eat.  Just one small thing you can do.  I'm sure there are lots of other ideas out there...

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Flame labs & balancer question

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Beth,

Not Kirsten here but that <2mg was referencing additional selenium, not manganese.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: How Long Does the Veil Last?

tosborne@...
 

My poor Snickers is still "off" his prepared feed.  Just to recap:  Sept 29/20 began Prascend 1/2 tablet, the next day he left behind about 1/3 of his prepared beetpulp, probiotic, hempseed oil, OminoTrace. Day 3, left 1/2 of the feed, and has continued to eat less and less.  However, his appetite for his hay appears undiminished and he is not losing any weight. We thought at first that it was due to the OminoTrace Mad Barn because it certainly stinks.  We removed all supplements.  We tried soaked hay cubes, various combinations of hay cubes & beetpulp.  We thought we had the problem solved when we tried adding SuperFibra Nature.  For 3 days he ate well, then gradually less and now for the past 3 days he has refused to even try the feed we make.  Today is Day 15 of Prascend at 1/2 tablet, the goal being to get him to 1 tablet.

I can't get APF anywhere in Ontario or Canada for that matter. 

To make matters more confusing, he has developed a bad abscess in the right front and is in a great deal of pain.  I suspect that pain could be contributing to him being off his feed however, he never lost his appetite during his laminitic spells.

My vet is still saying to stick it out on the 1/2 tablet of Prascend because she is concerned about the ACTH of 111 (so am I)

I'm wondering just how much longer we should let this continue before stopping the Prascend?  And when you stop Prascend, how long does it typically take for the appetite to return to normal?
--
Teresa O in Ontario, Canada 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Teresa%20and%20Snickers


Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

tosborne@...
 

Allison, Milton Equine Hospital are amazing people.  Sonseeahray will be in great hands.  Now, how about you?  How are you traveling down and where will you be staying?  I am only about 45 min away from Milton.  If  we didn't have to be worrying about Covid19, I would be bringing you into my home and taking care of you while your horse is in surgery, but I have a husband at high risk for Covid complications.  However, if you would like to meet for moral support, I can do that, appropriately masked, etc.
--
Teresa O in Ontario, Canada 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Teresa%20and%20Snickers


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

LJ Friedman
 

A boarding facility has their people working very fast. Weighing hay each individual time is probably too much work. My thought is that an experienced staff member can probably guesstimate good enough the amount of hay? Secondly, you can weigh out the hay for a week at a time?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Update on founder case and question on how to proceed

Mara
 

Thanks, Kristen. I will test blood again. I have not had leptin done on rechecks. Is that necessary?

Good to know on the thyo-l. Hard on the hay. I have tried many configurations and uses of hay nets. With basically no turnout, other than a tiny pen, he is angry and destructive. Slowing him down has been a challenge. I share his pain.
--
Mara
NJ
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mara%20and%20Enzo/?ord=dirname&d=asc


Re: PPID without IR and Grazing

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I think it is very unlikely you will have a problem with Babe being on grass as he has only been diagnosed for PPID and because Thoroughbreds are usually not IR at baseline.  As long as his PPID is tightly controlled year-round, his insulin should stay low.  You will want to check his ACTH and insulin in the spring before he goes on grass, and again in late summer/early autumn at a minimum.

One request:  could you please add a note to your Case History that the bloodwork done this summer was fasted?  Maybe put it in brackets next to the numbers/dates?  It really changes how we look at Babe's results, for example that insulin is too high to be normal for a fasted test but if we don't know it was fasted it looks like a very healthy insulin level.  Hopefully once the PPID is treated the insulin will drop, too, that's where additional testing will help you.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Hypermotility and abdominal spasms

TERRI JENNINGS
 

My vet came out yesterday. He said the spasms may not have anything to do with her GI tract but could indicate inflammation in another organ. He gave her Buscopan to stop the spasms but it didn’t work. He also took blood to see if it could be an electrolyte imbalance since she hasn’t been eating well and therefore doesn’t get all of her supplements.  Does anyone else have any ideas?  She is not in any distress but the spasms continue. No other symptoms except not eating and wanting to eat shavings. 

Thank You
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Re: Update on founder case and question on how to proceed

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Regarding the jiaogulan, it really does speed up hoof growth so as long as you can keep on top of that with more frequent trimming I think it's a good supplement to keep post-laminitic horses on.  It increases circulation in the hoof,  which in turn speeds healing (and growth!).

ACTH can be tested again after the winter solstice.  But it would be more useful for you to know how high ACTH is during the seasonal rise.  If it's more elevated than normal, you might have a case of early PPID that can be treated with pergolide during the rise in order to keep Enzo's insulin better controlled.

The Thyro-L should Kickstart weight loss.  I'd use it as a last resort because I don't like how it changes thyroid function over time, then they have to be weaned off of it slowly.  I think 17 lbs is a bit on the high side in hay considering how inactive he is now, so reducing that is where I would start.  You could try reducing it to 15 lbs/day (about 1.5% of current weight), or just by 1 lb/day and watch to see if you notice a change.  I know we generally advise feeding whichever is greater of 2% of ideal or 1.5% of current BW, but if I fed 2% of ideal my horse would be overweight.  I keep his hay at 1.5% of ideal, then adjust if needed when we are exercising more.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Soaking Hay in the Winter

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Hi Kim,

While seeing a bit of rib is not a bad thing (a BCS of 4.5-5 is a good place to be with an IR equine; most of us are conditioned to think heavier is looks healthier when it often is not), going in to winter you are probably worried about him needing a little extra to keep warm?  To put on weight we generally recommend starting with feeding 2% of ideal body weight in hay (so 20 lbs/day if your equine should be 1000 lb), and adjusting as needed depending on activity level and whether or not you see weight gain.  The Thyro-L is a "weight-loss" booster (that's all it does, it will not improve insulin sensitivity) so if you feel your mule has no weight left to lose you should talk with your vet about stopping it.  If he's been on it for a long time you will need to taper it off so his thyroid can get back to full functioning again.

You can try replacing the Purina grain with a safer option, like rinsed-soaked-rinsed beet pulp or Triple Crown Timothy Balance hay cubes, if you are just trying to add calories.

Please do get a Case History posted along with copies of blood work, hay analyses, trim photos, radiographs, etc (if you have them) so we can advise you further.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The body condition effects actually sound more like PPID but I see your ACTH is well controlled. What is the protein content of your hay? NDF and ADF? There can be muscle loss when they are frankly diabetic but his glucose has been well controlled for a while now.  I would try:

1. Give him free choice soaked hay
2. Stop the Mountain Sunrise - increase ODTB instead and feed moistened if you can get them to do that
3. Gradually increase flax up to 1 lb / day to boost protein
4.  Start 3 scoops/day of Uckele Tri-Amino

How often do you deworm?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Falki's Recent Blood Work - Request Feedback

Connie Proceviat
 

Good Morning Dr. Kellon,

I will start him on Prascend ASAP. When I tried it in the past, he was already sore when I began. Would it have any affect on his lameness if started prior to being sore?
I give him Jiaogulan in his feed year around but haven't given AAKG in a long while. Should I try adding AAKG as well during the cold weather?
Interestingly, his hooves are no longer cold to the touch like they were when we first started the ECIR protocol so we have made progress in that regard.
Thank you for your feedback. 
--
Connie Proceviat
2013 Manitoba, Canada
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Connie%20and%20Falki/Falki%20Case%20History.doc.pdf

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