Date   

Re: Flame labs & balancer question

Lorna Cane
 

Thanks to Kirsten, I now know I was missing the detail that it was Invokana being discussed, not Pergolide. That's why Pergolide didn't come up under Global Drugs .
Details.
I don't know about Island Pharmacy and Invokana but worth a try.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

LJ Friedman
 

im unsure  i understand the takeaway here?
We currently do not fast for insulin. does this study suggest a change to fasting insulin? 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Cheryl Oickle
 

Very Interesting document.  
A question: Jewels fasting insulin and glucose were within normal limits 2 years ago, every time now she is tested her glucose is less than 6 but insulin is greater than 100. At the time of the blood draws, she has either JUST finished her feed or is still eating a feed.
Could some one reflect on this given this recent find.
Thanks


--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Soaking does not remove all the calories, but it does reduce them a bit.  One of our members did a back of the envelope calculation and figured if 30% of the sugars were lost to soaking for a 7% ESC hay, it translates to about 4.6% loss in calories. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/233680
That's a ballpark estimate but I would add 0.5-1 lb to make up for the lost calories, and just monitor condition and adjust accordingly.   

Another way to do it is to test unsoaked and soaked hay samples from the same hay.  I recently sent soaked and unsoaked samples in for carb testing and your post reminded me that I should make sure DE (digestible energy) is included in the tests to see how much the calories drop with soaking....I will report back when I have the results, but I know others will have done the same and maybe they can tell you what percentage of calories were lost with their soaked hay.  It will vary, just like the amount of sugars soaked out varies depending on the hay.

Soaked hay is not Pablum, but even if it was so what!?  Once again after reading your post I am outraged!  I decided not to comment the first time, but now I am...  Food texture and even taste does not define quality of life.  Soaked hay has not lost all its calories or 'goodness'.  Sugars and potassium are reduced, but potassium is always in excess so that's not an issue.  Things like dirt (including iron) and dust are also reduced, to the benefit of the horse.  If soaking is only kept to 1 hr max, I am not aware of any other significant loss of minerals.  These comments all come from lack of knowledge so, yes, please educate your BO.  Based on your description of Flame he does not sound like he is suffering.  You don't have any recent photos of him posted but I imagine if he was shown recently his condition is reasonably good.  He sure looked good in 2016!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: from cabergoline back to CP

Johnson, Cathy
 

One thing you have also accomplished is to pave the pathway for the rest of us.  Because you and Jody discussed Cabergoline many times on this platform I had an alternative drug ready to go when Red stopped taking his Prascend.  For him it has worked for multiple years and I hope it continues to work.  However, I am able to use a 1 ml shot every 14 days which makes it more affordable than for Jessie.
--
Cathy Johnson

 

Roy, WA

October 12, 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Red


Re: shoes or no shoes for lame horse

Bobbie Day
 

Hello Renee

When my little mare was first diagnosed I agreed to shoes although my horses have been barefoot for a long time.
We had to find a farrier that was skilled enough to put them on. As literally everyone here knows my girl has horrible arthritis. Well I had to dope her just so he could work on her. Not once but several times (she’s very determined) and the farrier was well over six feet tall. It was absolute hell on her. After the second reset because they need trims so often I told my husband to get them off , and well the rest is history. The farrier was so mad at me when I told him she would be in boots instead. He got so argumentative with me that is when we started our road to trimming ourselves.
Either the barefoot trimmer would cancel at the last minute or a few times they refused to work on her. This hasn’t been a easy journey but a lot of us here have taken on the trims ourselves. I would plead with you to reconsider. Get pictures and post them in a album here. Lavinia, Dr.K and mods can give you directions on what needs to happen (x-rays too). It takes a serious commitment but your not alone.
Good luck 😊


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: PPID without IR and Grazing

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

That's right, 
we don't know what it would have been normally, without fasting
It might not have been very high, but you just don't know for sure.  :)

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: testing a symptom free ppid horse

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I would test in July (maybe August) to see how we are doing coming in to the rise, and adjust pergolide accordingly then retest in early Sept to see if its adequate.  The rest of the year doesn't seem to be as critical.

Just what I would do if I could choose based on what I've learned here.  My vet only comes out our way in May and October so those are the only times I can get bloodwork done.  But we are not dealing with PPID anyways. 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Hypermotility and abdominal spasms

TERRI JENNINGS
 

Thanks Kristen
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

Allison
 

Thank you Sherry so much for all your good wishes and support.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

 

Thank you for your replies. The hay analysis that I had done was over a year ago. That hay is long gone and I don’t know what the analysis of the hay that I’m currently feeding is which is why we soak it every day. I am now measuring the hay out for them so I at least have a consistent amount that I’m giving him. Trying to find the amount he will eat without leaving excess waste. Dr. Kellon I will implement the changes you suggested. I worm him twice a year, less often then the other boarders horses, since he’s not allowed to go out on the pastures. I understand that soaking hay takes out the sugars and starches, and that I’m guessing reduces some of the calories of the hay, but does it remove all the calories? My barn owner thinks soaking removes every single calorie out of the hay & that’s why Flame isn’t gaining weight. I don’t feel that this is right but I also don’t know how to explain it to her. Thanks in advance!
--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




Re: Flame labs & balancer question

 

Thank you for the info & replies. I thought I had the hay analysis on my phone but I don’t. I can see from emailing one of the ECIR hay balancers that it was done a year ago. So even if I find it, I have no idea what the hay I’m currently feeding had in it. Hay in Las Vegas comes from a distributor & they get it from multiple states around us. I will definitely check out Invokana pricing at Canadian pharmacies & it’s good to know about the shipping delays! Thank you!!
--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




Re: Flame labs & balancer question

Lorna Cane
 

I always recommend Island Pharmacy ( Shawnigan Lake, B.C., Email Kathryn : shawnigangirl@... TOLL FREE: 1-877-743-6944 ), but am always interested in other sources.

I can't find pergolide in a search there. 
http://www.globaldrugsdirect.com/DrugMoreInfo6983.aspx

Wondering what I'm missing?

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

This is the abstract from the recent study on fasting insulin showing the cutoff of 20 uIU for normal was way too high:

Comparison of fasted basal insulin with the combined glucose-insulin test in horses and ponies with suspected insulin dysregulation

Highlights

Basal (fasting) insulin is a convenient test of insulin dysregulation.

Previous cut-offs had poor sensitivity (15%) for diagnosis of insulin dysregulation.

Use of a receiver operating characteristic curve-derived cut-off improved the sensitivity (63%) of basal (fasting) insulin.

Specificity (87%) was maintained with this technique.

Abstract

Fasting horses for measurement of basal serum insulin concentration (fasting insulin; FI) has been recommended to standardise testing for insulin dysregulation (ID), yet limited data exist comparing it to dynamic tests. This study aimed to compare FI with the combined glucose-insulin test (CGIT) in horses suspect for ID. We hypothesised that FI would have poor sensitivity for detecting ID compared to CGIT using conventional cut-offs. Records were retrieved from CGITs performed in horses fasted for approximately 8 h. Serum insulin and glucose concentrations were measured before and for 150 min following an IV bolus of glucose followed by insulin. Correlations between FI and CGIT values were assessed. Youden’s index analysis was used to determine the optimal cut-off for FI. Logistic regression and Mann–Whitney U tests were used to determine factors affecting the results.

CGITs (n = 130) from 62 horses were evaluated. Compared to CGIT, sensitivity and specificity of FI for diagnosis of ID were 14.6% and 100% at a cut-off of 20 μIU/mL and 63.4% and 87.2% at a cut-off of 5.2 μIU/mL, respectively. FI was significantly correlated with insulin at 45 min (rs = 0.66) and 75 min (rs = 0.72); area under the curve for insulin (AUCinsulin; rs = 0.67); glucose at 45 min (rs = 0.53); and AUCglucose (rs = 0.50). Obesity was significantly associated with increased odds of a positive CGIT and horses with a positive CGIT were significantly older (P < 0.05). In conclusion, FI correlated well with CGIT results and had adequate sensitivity and specificity at lower cut-offs, despite poor sensitivity at conventional cut-off values. Further research to derive cut-off values relevant to the fasting period is warranted.



--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: PPID without IR and Grazing

Anna Dolly
 

thanks,Kirsten,
I'm a little confused- if he wasn't fasted, who knows how high it would have been at baseline? He was fasted, so I understand that it should have been
a bit lower in that case- do you mean that we don't know what it would have been normally, without fasting?
--
Anna Dolly
Keyser, WV
Sept. 2020
Babe's Case History
Babe's Photo Album


Re: testing a symptom free ppid horse

LJ Friedman
 

Thank you for the correction. I was unsure my months for correct but of course we have to test before the rise ,  ie test in September 

why july and sept?  
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: testing a symptom free ppid horse

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I guess it depends.  I would probably test in July and September myself, and not worry much about the rest of the year...

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Hypermotility and abdominal spasms

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

I have no suggestions for you, Terri, but it is good to hear she is managing well enough for now.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: How Long Does the Veil Last?

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

As long as he is eating his hay, drinking water, and holding weight I would continue.  IMO it won't hurt to be off supplements for up to a few weeks. 

Prascend can take 10 days to be fully cleared but I believe 4 days after the last dose blood levels start dropping.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Flame labs & balancer question

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Dr Kellon posted this a few months ago:
Most people are using a Canadian based pharmacy which gets it down well below $200/month, e.g. http://www.globaldrugsdirect.com/DrugMoreInfo6983.aspx . There can be a 2 to 4+ week delay in receiving it.
There might be even greater shipping delays now due to COVID, but maybe our members can let you know how long it takes to get their prescriptions...

Sorry about the Mg / Mn mixup.  I live in an area where Mn is very high so my concern is always reducing it.  When you were testing hay, how much Mn were you seeing in it?  Do you know roughly where the hay comes from (ie West vs east?)?  Dr Clougher wrote in here a long time ago that anywhere affected by Mt St Helen's ash has high Mn in soil levels.  I bet there is a Mn in soil map of the continental US online that you could look at to see where it might be depleted.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

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