Date   

Riosa needs help looking forward feedback

hdavis
 

Hello,

so Rio has something stuck in her mouth or her teeth I suspect as is acting weird when she eats. Or vet checked her teeth last time when she took bloods and her teeth were good but now she keeps opening and closing her mouth, licking her lips lots and at times paws at her hay. Other times she seems to not have issues eating and it has been on an off for about 2 days now with this. I have tried to connect with my vet on this but we are having a hard time connecting.  She also thinks something stuck in her teeth or mouth based on the videos I took and sent her.

i have tried to look in her mouth and feel inside but hard when she keeps chewing and don’t want to loose a finger lol.  I also have tried to flush her mouth out on numerous occasions to see if I can dislodge whatever she has in there... but no luck.

so I was wondering does anyone have any tips or tricks to see inside a horse mouth by a horse owner.

as my vet is 2 hours away from me, I worry about hauling her 2 hours one way then back again with her recovering hooves.  Any ideas on that and distance one can travel with a horse or is there a time frame after laminitis that hauling is safer.

i have a clinic that is about 40 minutes from me that could possibly look at her... but it isn’t my regular vet and they are not versed in IR protocols in regards to sedatives. I am thinking that that distance is closer to haul her but not sure if i should even consider hauling her.  Getting a vet out to my area is very tough on short notice so just thing yo find best options. 


Thanks in advance for the suggestions.  
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Winter coat not growing

Jeanne Q
 

Hi All
Quick question.  Glory's winter coat seems to have stopped growing.  She shed out her summer coat and new winter hair started growing in but it now seems to have stopped.  Her last ACTH was 86.4pg/ml 9/27/20.  I have increased her Prascend dose from 1 1/2 to 2 tablets per day.  I have put a light fleece sheet on her a few nights so far when it got down in the low 30's but try and keep her with no blanket so she will grow winter hair.  Is this normal for PPID?  I know shedding and curly coat are issues but how about little growth?  We are in north Minnesota so I am concerned about the coming temps!  Thanks!
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Sherry Morse
 

LJ, in that scenario you'd want to test at 11am or later, but bear in mind that if you do a feed later in the day you still don't want to test right afterwards due to the bump in insulin from a hard feed.




Re: Fresh blood work, updated case history and disappointed

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Tracy,

The insulin is the most concerning to me because that is over the danger zone so I definitely would start soaking the hay and keep up with the exercise as he's not sore at the moment. Being agitated with the vet could cause a bump up, but that's quite a bump.  Would love to hear others' opinions on it.




Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

LJ Friedman
 

If a horsec fasts overnight and feed the first meal of the day at 7 AM, would if that makes sense to test after the second meal of the day? 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Fresh blood work, updated case history and disappointed

LJ Friedman
 

I don’t see anything wrong with that ACTH level this time of year? Thinking what else is causing the high insulin? Maybe it’s not the PPID?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Fresh blood work, updated case history and disappointed

Tracy
 

Got Salsa's blood work from last week back.  Case history is up-to-date.  Hay is balanced by Dr Kellon (and I took her class this year to learn that myself too).
You think you're doing at least "ok" and then....blood work.
Glucose 92 (71-122), Insulin 116.52 (10-40) and ACTH 29.2 (9-35) all at Cornell.  He was very skittish/agitated when the vet was here - more than usual (he always snorts).
His hay is a little over 10% nsc and I have a hay feeder machine that drops it every 4 hours. I keep a bath scale in the barn to weigh it often though not religiously.
Currently NO tender feet and supposed to go trail ride on the 25th (all walking - friend has a green horse she's working with).
I noted in mid July he was a little tender footed and that he had been same time in 2019.  With boots he'd run around and play.  After about a week - no more tender feet - boots off.
I also noted on September 8th this year that winter coat coming in around head/neck/shoulders.  Sept 14 I noted more drinking - that is now past and he's drinking normally.
My husband's job was "eliminated" in August (and we found out sometime in July - it's all a blur) - so that's why I didn't get the vet out sooner - I couldn't - we were reeling.
I suspect Salsa may need a little extra Prascend for the seasonal rise based on signs/symptoms even though his current ACTH is in range - even now in the rise.  Thoughts?  I think next year maybe early July (??) get the vet out to pull ACTH then to try to get a little ahead of the rise (right?).
I also know I need to exercise Salsa to deal with that insulin AND I suspect soaking the hay is in order. 
Like most of you I work, have a family and 2020 has generally kicked our behinds but time to ride/work Salsa will have to be prioritized and soaking the hay.

Does my plan to increase exercise, soak hay and NEXT year get ahead of the rise because of these symptoms seem right?
Hubby also got a new contract gig starting soon - so that is good - hopefully it goes permanent.
Thanks everyone!
--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It only says if you do fast the upper limit of normal needs to change.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The point of the article is that fasting "normal limits" are too high. If you apply their recommendations, her fasting insulins were above normal.

Post meal insulin depends on the composition (sugar and starch) of the meal, and whether it followed an overnight fast. The first meal of the day after an overnight fast will produce a higher insulin response and that last about 4 hours. Otherwise, very low sugar and starch meals produce low insulin responses that peak at 1 to 1.5 hours after eating.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Flame labs & balancer question

Lorna Cane
 

Thanks to Kirsten, I now know I was missing the detail that it was Invokana being discussed, not Pergolide. That's why Pergolide didn't come up under Global Drugs .
Details.
I don't know about Island Pharmacy and Invokana but worth a try.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

LJ Friedman
 

im unsure  i understand the takeaway here?
We currently do not fast for insulin. does this study suggest a change to fasting insulin? 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Cheryl Oickle
 

Very Interesting document.  
A question: Jewels fasting insulin and glucose were within normal limits 2 years ago, every time now she is tested her glucose is less than 6 but insulin is greater than 100. At the time of the blood draws, she has either JUST finished her feed or is still eating a feed.
Could some one reflect on this given this recent find.
Thanks


--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Soaking does not remove all the calories, but it does reduce them a bit.  One of our members did a back of the envelope calculation and figured if 30% of the sugars were lost to soaking for a 7% ESC hay, it translates to about 4.6% loss in calories. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/233680
That's a ballpark estimate but I would add 0.5-1 lb to make up for the lost calories, and just monitor condition and adjust accordingly.   

Another way to do it is to test unsoaked and soaked hay samples from the same hay.  I recently sent soaked and unsoaked samples in for carb testing and your post reminded me that I should make sure DE (digestible energy) is included in the tests to see how much the calories drop with soaking....I will report back when I have the results, but I know others will have done the same and maybe they can tell you what percentage of calories were lost with their soaked hay.  It will vary, just like the amount of sugars soaked out varies depending on the hay.

Soaked hay is not Pablum, but even if it was so what!?  Once again after reading your post I am outraged!  I decided not to comment the first time, but now I am...  Food texture and even taste does not define quality of life.  Soaked hay has not lost all its calories or 'goodness'.  Sugars and potassium are reduced, but potassium is always in excess so that's not an issue.  Things like dirt (including iron) and dust are also reduced, to the benefit of the horse.  If soaking is only kept to 1 hr max, I am not aware of any other significant loss of minerals.  These comments all come from lack of knowledge so, yes, please educate your BO.  Based on your description of Flame he does not sound like he is suffering.  You don't have any recent photos of him posted but I imagine if he was shown recently his condition is reasonably good.  He sure looked good in 2016!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: from cabergoline back to CP

Johnson, Cathy
 

One thing you have also accomplished is to pave the pathway for the rest of us.  Because you and Jody discussed Cabergoline many times on this platform I had an alternative drug ready to go when Red stopped taking his Prascend.  For him it has worked for multiple years and I hope it continues to work.  However, I am able to use a 1 ml shot every 14 days which makes it more affordable than for Jessie.
--
Cathy Johnson

 

Roy, WA

October 12, 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Red


Re: shoes or no shoes for lame horse

Bobbie Day
 

Hello Renee

When my little mare was first diagnosed I agreed to shoes although my horses have been barefoot for a long time.
We had to find a farrier that was skilled enough to put them on. As literally everyone here knows my girl has horrible arthritis. Well I had to dope her just so he could work on her. Not once but several times (she’s very determined) and the farrier was well over six feet tall. It was absolute hell on her. After the second reset because they need trims so often I told my husband to get them off , and well the rest is history. The farrier was so mad at me when I told him she would be in boots instead. He got so argumentative with me that is when we started our road to trimming ourselves.
Either the barefoot trimmer would cancel at the last minute or a few times they refused to work on her. This hasn’t been a easy journey but a lot of us here have taken on the trims ourselves. I would plead with you to reconsider. Get pictures and post them in a album here. Lavinia, Dr.K and mods can give you directions on what needs to happen (x-rays too). It takes a serious commitment but your not alone.
Good luck 😊


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: PPID without IR and Grazing

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

That's right, 
we don't know what it would have been normally, without fasting
It might not have been very high, but you just don't know for sure.  :)

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: testing a symptom free ppid horse

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I would test in July (maybe August) to see how we are doing coming in to the rise, and adjust pergolide accordingly then retest in early Sept to see if its adequate.  The rest of the year doesn't seem to be as critical.

Just what I would do if I could choose based on what I've learned here.  My vet only comes out our way in May and October so those are the only times I can get bloodwork done.  But we are not dealing with PPID anyways. 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Hypermotility and abdominal spasms

TERRI JENNINGS
 

Thanks Kristen
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Re: Squamous Cell Carcinoma

Allison
 

Thank you Sherry so much for all your good wishes and support.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=254641


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

 

Thank you for your replies. The hay analysis that I had done was over a year ago. That hay is long gone and I don’t know what the analysis of the hay that I’m currently feeding is which is why we soak it every day. I am now measuring the hay out for them so I at least have a consistent amount that I’m giving him. Trying to find the amount he will eat without leaving excess waste. Dr. Kellon I will implement the changes you suggested. I worm him twice a year, less often then the other boarders horses, since he’s not allowed to go out on the pastures. I understand that soaking hay takes out the sugars and starches, and that I’m guessing reduces some of the calories of the hay, but does it remove all the calories? My barn owner thinks soaking removes every single calorie out of the hay & that’s why Flame isn’t gaining weight. I don’t feel that this is right but I also don’t know how to explain it to her. Thanks in advance!
--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  



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