Date   

Worming on the weekend at my boarding barn. I believe the wormer allowed for my PPID/EMS horse is just plain ivermectin?

Rhonda Turley
 


--
Rhonda Turley
Brampton, Ontario
April 2020
Scooter and Rhonda     


Re: Urgent Emergency

tosborne@...
 

Michele, I'm really sorry that your horse and you are going through this. 

I did a quick internet search on the naquazone " Trichlormethiazide is an oral combination product marketed under the name Naquasone as a treatment for udder edema in cows. It is used to reduce mild swellings, especially in the legs of horses, by causing the body to lose water and sodium chloride by decreasing the reabsorption of these electrolytes in the kidneys. In combination with dexamethasone, which is a potent anti-inflammatory, it should be used only under the supervision of a veterinarian who has made a proper diagnostic evaluation.

Trichlor/dexamethasone does not cure the underlying cause of the swelling. Usage:Trichlormethiazide combined with dexamethasone is used to reduce mild swelling in the legs of horses. Because each component of the product works by a different mechanism, trichlor/dex contains a smaller dose of the individual drugs than might be used when administered separately.  Precautions: Dexamethasone is a corticosteroid and should be used with extreme caution in any horse prone to laminitis.

Trichlormethiazide is a diuretic and prolonged use can result in electrolyte depletion and dehydration. Free access to water and salt are important."

Based on this, I would be very leary about administering the drug to your Schimpie, especially since she has had laminitis induced by steriods before.  To my way of thinking, if it doesn't cure the underlying cause of the swelling, it is not worth the risk.  I would use ice packs covered with dish towels or other soft thin fabric. And for shock, blanket your mare and try to get some Rescue Remedy.  In Ontario, you can get rescue remedy at most health stores and many grocery stores also carry it. 

I would go back to the vet and lay out your concerns.  I would be surprised if they can't come up with an alternative for you.

I will keep you and Schimpie in my heart.  Please keep us posted on her progress.

--
Teresa O in Ontario, Canada 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Teresa%20and%20Snickers


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

For insulin testing, remember the best and simplest is to keep hay available through the night before and day of testing with no other feeding.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Winter coat not growing

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Starts and stops in both growth and shedding can happen. Don't blanket her unless she's shivering.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Riosa needs help looking forward feedback

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You need a flashlight or head lamp. Grasp her tongue and pull it out the side of her  mouth. That will keep her mouth open. You'll need to do it on both sides.

Any equine dentists around?

If she's drinking normally this isn't  an emergency that would necessitate hauling her if she can be seen within a few days. Feed her cubes soupy.

I don't know how you are flushing but a hose works best. You're going to get wet!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Urgent Emergency

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

This post is now 3 hours old so you probably  made your decision already. We can't prescribe for your horse or contradict your vet but I can give you some background.

Every medication comes with a list of risks and  benefits that must be weighed for the individual case. Corticosteroids can be lifesaving in some  instances of shock. They support heart action  and stabilize membranes. In that scenario they are administered intravenously and ASAP. I'm guessing that wasn't the situation or your vet would have given them.  It may also be given to control tissue swelling, in which case it may be given with a diuretic (Naquasone). This is not a lifesaving use.

Signs of shock to watch for: Pale membranes, weak pulse, trembling/shivering, "out of it".

The 15 mg is a high dose. I wouldn't  give it with her history but that's just an opinion and obviously I'm not there.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Message Posting Etiquette - Keeping ECIR User Friendly - Thu, 10/15/2020 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Message Posting Etiquette - Keeping ECIR User Friendly

When:
Thursday, 15 October 2020

Description:
Message Posting Etiquette

This is a high volume group that can be difficult to follow. Help make it easier for everyone by following the Message Posting Guidelines below:
1) Sign your posts. This is a very large group.  Whenever posting a message, identify yourself and your equine by using your full ECIR Signature with your first name, location, the date you joined and the links to your Case History folder and Photo Album. The volunteers need all this information to provide quality responses and suggestions for local support, vendors, vets and hoof care. 
 
2) Be clear in your posts. If you need to quote a line this is most easily done using the web to reply (not from email). Once you have the message you want to reply to on your screen, copy the text you want quoted, then paste it into the reply message composer.  Highlight the text you are quoting and then click on the quotation marks in the toolbar.  
3) Be considerate of the Support Team. They volunteer to help members in their spare time. Many have full time jobs. Unless you are in an emergency read the Start Here Files and check the archives to see if your question has been answered before.  Many new member's questions are answered there.
4) Discussion should always take place on the forums so all members can learn from the conversation and the support team can help clear up confusion.  
5)  Try not to hijack threads.  Start a New Message or change the subject line to discuss issues not covered by the subject line.
6) Don't immediately re-post.  Give “missing” posts a few hours before reposting. For unanswered messages, be patient. A lack of response is not personal or a reflection on you in any way. With so many posts some do get missed. Unless in an emergency situation, wait roughly 48 hours before re-posting and edit the subject line with "2nd Try". 
7) Off-topic but horse-related discussions: ECIR Horsekeeping Forum provides a place to discuss issues involving non-PPID/EMS horses, general horse keeping practices, other equine health issues, alternative therapies and any equine related philosophical debates.
8) All discussion about horses with PPID and EMS takes place in the ECIR Forum. Hoof related discussion for horses that do not have PPID/EMS takes place in the ECIR Hoof Forum
 Thank you for your cooperation.
 
- The ECIR Group support Team
 
 


Urgent Emergency

Michele Goldberg <ladipus@...>
 

My mare Schimpie got cast in her stall tonight and managed to get both hind legs & feet stuck in the stall bars ...she struggled , flailed and tore the bars/grate down with her hind legs and feet stuck..we had to get a saw to cut the bars in order to free her ....the vet gave her IV dmso , banamine , Gentacin, and Equisule...she tore the back of her heel bulb in the left hind hoof , and gashed the corbi art band ...she also had some gashes above and below her right hock ...the vet said she was in shock and thinks she should have naquazone -which contains dexamethasone ...problem is she had an acute bout of laminitis in June which was induced by steroids that were given for her allergies ...I’m very hesitant to give her naquazone given her recent history of laminitis ..but he said with a trauma like this and her being in shock she should have it ...it’s packets ..he wants me to give her 3 packets which would equal 15mg ...what should I do ?? I’m freaked out by this accident , freaked out that’s shes in shock and also very torn if I should give her this naquazone ...vet says it’s what you do for a trauma /injury 
--
Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa 
joined 5/19/2016


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

 

Thank you Kirsten. I will definitely let my BO know that not ALL the calories are soaked out of the hay. I was pretty astounded & then mad when she liked his quality of life to his food. He is bright, looks forward to me showing up 6 days a week & getting him out to exercise. He is sound & eats well. I just need to make sure he’s getting enough to put on weight. He doesn’t look quite as good as his last pics. I’ll take some tomorrow & out them in his Case History folder. Again, thank you for the info!! 
--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




Re: Riosa needs help looking forward feedback

hdavis
 

Thanks Martha.  Yes all is normal in regards to temp, resp rate, attitude etc.  I sent videos to my vet and she agrees she is presenting as if something stuck in her teeth or mouth.  It appears to be along the cheek area in the left side of her mouth.  I hesitate to give an nsaid at this point as want her to still be carful chewing and worry if she isn’t she might choke esp with her soaked cubes.  She is acting like she is trying to get whatever it is out with her tongue and moving her jaw.  

Do you or anyone on the forum know about hauling horses who are recovering from laminitis?  Any guidelines as to how long after laminitis that they can be safely hauled in regards to hurting their hooves or for how long?  

Thoughts or ideas?


From: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io> on behalf of Martha McSherry via groups.io <mmcsherry@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 8:53:49 PM
To: main@ECIR.groups.io <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Riosa needs help looking forward feedback
 
Heather, from your description, that sounds like a pain response to me.  Do you have any banamine you can give her (orally) to see if the chewing stops?  You should probably take her temperature first.  
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Re: Riosa needs help looking forward feedback

 

Heather, from your description, that sounds like a pain response to me.  Do you have any banamine you can give her (orally) to see if the chewing stops?  You should probably take her temperature first.  
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Riosa needs help looking forward feedback

hdavis
 

Hello,

so Rio has something stuck in her mouth or her teeth I suspect as is acting weird when she eats. Or vet checked her teeth last time when she took bloods and her teeth were good but now she keeps opening and closing her mouth, licking her lips lots and at times paws at her hay. Other times she seems to not have issues eating and it has been on an off for about 2 days now with this. I have tried to connect with my vet on this but we are having a hard time connecting.  She also thinks something stuck in her teeth or mouth based on the videos I took and sent her.

i have tried to look in her mouth and feel inside but hard when she keeps chewing and don’t want to loose a finger lol.  I also have tried to flush her mouth out on numerous occasions to see if I can dislodge whatever she has in there... but no luck.

so I was wondering does anyone have any tips or tricks to see inside a horse mouth by a horse owner.

as my vet is 2 hours away from me, I worry about hauling her 2 hours one way then back again with her recovering hooves.  Any ideas on that and distance one can travel with a horse or is there a time frame after laminitis that hauling is safer.

i have a clinic that is about 40 minutes from me that could possibly look at her... but it isn’t my regular vet and they are not versed in IR protocols in regards to sedatives. I am thinking that that distance is closer to haul her but not sure if i should even consider hauling her.  Getting a vet out to my area is very tough on short notice so just thing yo find best options. 


Thanks in advance for the suggestions.  
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Winter coat not growing

Jeanne Q
 

Hi All
Quick question.  Glory's winter coat seems to have stopped growing.  She shed out her summer coat and new winter hair started growing in but it now seems to have stopped.  Her last ACTH was 86.4pg/ml 9/27/20.  I have increased her Prascend dose from 1 1/2 to 2 tablets per day.  I have put a light fleece sheet on her a few nights so far when it got down in the low 30's but try and keep her with no blanket so she will grow winter hair.  Is this normal for PPID?  I know shedding and curly coat are issues but how about little growth?  We are in north Minnesota so I am concerned about the coming temps!  Thanks!
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Sherry Morse
 

LJ, in that scenario you'd want to test at 11am or later, but bear in mind that if you do a feed later in the day you still don't want to test right afterwards due to the bump in insulin from a hard feed.




Re: Fresh blood work, updated case history and disappointed

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Tracy,

The insulin is the most concerning to me because that is over the danger zone so I definitely would start soaking the hay and keep up with the exercise as he's not sore at the moment. Being agitated with the vet could cause a bump up, but that's quite a bump.  Would love to hear others' opinions on it.




Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

LJ Friedman
 

If a horsec fasts overnight and feed the first meal of the day at 7 AM, would if that makes sense to test after the second meal of the day? 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Fresh blood work, updated case history and disappointed

LJ Friedman
 

I don’t see anything wrong with that ACTH level this time of year? Thinking what else is causing the high insulin? Maybe it’s not the PPID?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Fresh blood work, updated case history and disappointed

Tracy
 

Got Salsa's blood work from last week back.  Case history is up-to-date.  Hay is balanced by Dr Kellon (and I took her class this year to learn that myself too).
You think you're doing at least "ok" and then....blood work.
Glucose 92 (71-122), Insulin 116.52 (10-40) and ACTH 29.2 (9-35) all at Cornell.  He was very skittish/agitated when the vet was here - more than usual (he always snorts).
His hay is a little over 10% nsc and I have a hay feeder machine that drops it every 4 hours. I keep a bath scale in the barn to weigh it often though not religiously.
Currently NO tender feet and supposed to go trail ride on the 25th (all walking - friend has a green horse she's working with).
I noted in mid July he was a little tender footed and that he had been same time in 2019.  With boots he'd run around and play.  After about a week - no more tender feet - boots off.
I also noted on September 8th this year that winter coat coming in around head/neck/shoulders.  Sept 14 I noted more drinking - that is now past and he's drinking normally.
My husband's job was "eliminated" in August (and we found out sometime in July - it's all a blur) - so that's why I didn't get the vet out sooner - I couldn't - we were reeling.
I suspect Salsa may need a little extra Prascend for the seasonal rise based on signs/symptoms even though his current ACTH is in range - even now in the rise.  Thoughts?  I think next year maybe early July (??) get the vet out to pull ACTH then to try to get a little ahead of the rise (right?).
I also know I need to exercise Salsa to deal with that insulin AND I suspect soaking the hay is in order. 
Like most of you I work, have a family and 2020 has generally kicked our behinds but time to ride/work Salsa will have to be prioritized and soaking the hay.

Does my plan to increase exercise, soak hay and NEXT year get ahead of the rise because of these symptoms seem right?
Hubby also got a new contract gig starting soon - so that is good - hopefully it goes permanent.
Thanks everyone!
--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It only says if you do fast the upper limit of normal needs to change.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Fasting Insulin Guidelines

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The point of the article is that fasting "normal limits" are too high. If you apply their recommendations, her fasting insulins were above normal.

Post meal insulin depends on the composition (sugar and starch) of the meal, and whether it followed an overnight fast. The first meal of the day after an overnight fast will produce a higher insulin response and that last about 4 hours. Otherwise, very low sugar and starch meals produce low insulin responses that peak at 1 to 1.5 hours after eating.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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