Date   

Re: chickens in horse hay/ chance for salmonella with my IR horse

celestinefarm
 

Daisy, my neighbor's chickens a couple of years ago decided they liked to roam over to my barn. They would spend the day crapping on everything and laying eggs in the hay, which would end up either rolling down between the wall and bale stack or be buried enough in the hay that they would end up smashed on the hay and I lost half a bale to the mess.  My neighbors finally stopped allowing them to free roam, but one chicken refused to go back home and she ended up becoming kind of a pet. I kept her for about two or three months, but in that time, she learned to roost on top of Tipperary's stall wall, where she would vent into his water buckets.  Or down the wall, In the aisle , where I or others would track it into the tack room or my truck.
I found a home for the chicken with a friend who keeps chickens.  It took me days to find and clean up the mess they left behind. I would do everything I could to not have my horse around chickens.  I know other animals shed salmonella but chicken manure is not easy to find in hay, feed. You can't keep water buckets clean 24/7 with chickens roaming, flying and roosting.  Just my opinion but based on a years worth of experience. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


High insulin again- metformin, mare cycles

 

Here we go again, only during the seasonal rise. I’d appreciate a review of the steps I’m taking to address Cayuse’s latest high insulin. Updated CH link.

 

On 9/11/20 I received the second very high insulin test for Cayuse in 6 months, this time 106.29 ulu/ml. I immediately started trying to syringe 13.5g of metformin twice a day, gave a ½ mg increase in pergolide and started soaking her hay longer. Soaked hay tests before I increased soaking times showed ESC of 5.9% 6.7% (two tests, same hay, soak time) and 4.9%

 

The results of a follow-up draw 17 days after these management changes: insulin dropped to 60.29 ulu/ml. ACTH is unchanged. 

 

Metformin dosing wasn’t spot-on during the 17 days until I found reusable syringes (silicone O-ring is the key) that I can operate smoothly with one hand. I know that Cayuse is now getting the full metformin dose. That didn’t happen until three days before the follow-up blood draw. We had a glitch the day before the blood draw when we missed the AM dose.

 

My plan has been to continue metformin, with another ½ mg increase in pergolide, and check insulin and ACTH again in the second week of November. That will be two months since we started metformin. I don’t see any way to know metformin’s role in reducing insulin, so for now I don’t plan to stop it. OTOH I’m not prepared to give metformin all credit for the insulin drop because Cayuse had a similar insulin drop in late spring without metformin. 

 

A new factor is that this year, for the first time, her mare cycles were noticeable and seemingly endless. When I checked hormones a few years ago, only progesterone was high. Is there any sense in rechecking hormones at this time of year? Could these high insulin tests be capturing the pattern of her estrus cycle?

 

Her insulin values are fluctuating in a bad way with a clear upward trend. Right now, interestingly, she looks good: body condition trim, crest smaller, bucking and playing. 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Very high ACTH, no symotoms

Bonnie Eddy
 

Wanting to know if it possible to get a really high ACTH with NO symptoms.

1st gelding new horse has mild symptoms, he tested at 176

2nd gelding as he is 20, we just did a routine check to see where he was. His ACTH was 576. Absolutely NO symptoms. 

Is is possible to have a horse that high with no symptoms? Am almost wondering if the 2 were somehow mixed up? Was sent to Cornell.

Will start new case histories, both started on Prascend. Can't believe we've got 2 PPID. We've only got 3 horses.

Thank you,
--
Bonnie with Racham (over the rainbow) from Southern California, Nov/2016

Case History
Racham's Photos 
Ω 

 


Re: Compounded Pergolide instead of Prascend

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 06:19 PM, Cheryl Oickle wrote:
I deal with Island Pharmacy and they are awesome. It took time to wrap my head around the strength difference after we discussed it three ways between vet and pharmacy and me. Basically 1 mg of compounded pergolide mesylate delivers 0.7 mg of the prascend equivalent due to the compounding ingredient. 
At the risk of confusing things, both Prascend and compounded pergolide are pergolide mesylate.  Both are also in a base of some sort because 1 mg is the equivalent of less than 2 grains of salt, virtually an invisibly small amount.  Compounding ingredients have nothing to do with it. It's the amount of pergolide mesylate and therefore of pergolide activity that is different in some compounded products vs Prascend.
 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Adding Jiaogulan to diet

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

No, it won't hurt. Start with 1 tsp if she will eat it as a paste (most will) once or twice a  day.  If feeding with meals, start with 1 tbsp. Adding AAKG is for enhanced circulatory effects and won't help with the adaptogen action.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: thrush!!

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

ACV and clay won't get the job done.  If the cracks are deep, clean them out with gauze and water with Fairy dish soap then rinse thoroughly using a small syringe and a cow teat cannula. Infuse with a mastitis antibiotic https://www.farmacy.co.uk/categories/159-milking-cow-tube ,  Cover the heels with a sanitary napkin held in place with a self-adhesive wrap https://www.farmacy.co.uk/products/555-vetrap-cohesive-bandage10cm-each .  Repeat daily until healed.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Adding Jiaogulan to diet

Cheryl Oickle
 

As above.  I have noticed that Jewel is a bit more apathetic, depressed maybe since increasing her pergolide over 8 weeks ago. Her activity level  a bit slower, yet her usual interactiveness is great. Of note she has been stocking up a bit but this resolves with riding
I do not see any signs of laminitis, she still moves out fairly well when ridden, appetite great, weight stable etc.
Trims continue on a 4 week cycle.  Yes she is getting older (almost 20) but...
My question, a trial of jiaogulan I am considering.  Would it hurt. And how much should I give, I can only feed once daily.
My friend suggests adding AAKG. Is this necessary

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: thrush!!

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Sandy,

This is where having hoof pictures and a case history can help us because while thrush can be related to living conditions, it can also be a problem related to hoof quality and the trim.  I don't see that you've joined the Case History group: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory but if you need help on getting started with posting pictures and a case history over there you can check the wiki for information (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/16248) and let us know if you get stuck where you need help.

As far as treatment though what you're using is a good overall start.  I've had luck using Cephapirin Benzathine (which we can get here in the states in a product called Tomorrow from Boehringer Ingelheim which is a dry cow mastitis treatment) for really stubborn cases but if you caught it early enough you might not need to go that route quite yet.




Re: Urgent Emergency

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I don't think it needs to be deleted, Teresa.  Cross posting happens all the time, it's not a big deal.  

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


thrush!!

Sandy Gazzard
 

hi, I  know thrush is not a lami problem per say. but it is just  become   big problem for me. I keep my mare on a bare track, I poo is every day , she was in very bad mud last winter, weather was terrible.  she didn't get mud fever ,and  no  thrush until the spring.
its only early altumn now and she is getting thrush in her heels -never had it there before, but its getting worse. ive cleaned hoof with cider apple vinegar, and applied hoof putty(clay) ive put mud control mats in the track where she stands for hay.  
I could shut her in  for the winter , but she needs lots of movement. I cant let her out in the grass,even muzzled .she gets bad f.f.l.( water in poos)  and it very at risk of  weight gain and lami. 
 I don't know what I can do. sorry for long post 
 many thanks 
--
sandy
, joined 27th January 2020. location. Cornwall-England


Re: Compounded Pergolide instead of Prascend

Cheryl Oickle
 

EXACTLY! So here my vet prescribes CP 1mg pergolide which hence only delivers 0.7 mg of actual pergolide + the mesylate part .
So crazy

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Compounded Pergolide instead of Prascend

Cheryl Oickle
 

Yes that is the OTHER way of looking at it providing it is written out as that in the script from the vet.
Here, it is dispensed as 1 mg CP capsules hence the 0.3 mg difference accounting for the weight in the additive so inessence is ONLY delivering 0.7 mg of pergolide

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

 

Thanks Dr. Kellon for your reply. He is on ukulele liquid E. I will make sure it’s on his case history. I’ll be going on all the recommendations you gave me. Thank you!--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




Re: Compounded Pergolide instead of Prascend

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The confusion arises from a USP monograph on how to prepare liquid pergolide suspensions which calls for 1mg of pergolide mesylate instead of 1 mg pergolide activity.  1 mg of pergolide mesylate is equivalent to about 2/3 mg of pergolide (the rest is the mesylate). Prascend tablets = 1 mg pergolide activity = 1.33 mg of pergolide mesylate.

Compounders use the information in USP monographs to prepare their products so the above recommendation got carried over to the dry formulations as well.

To guarantee your tablets are equivalent to the dosage in a Prascend tablet the prescription should read:

                                   1 mg of pergolide from pergolide mesylate
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: chickens in horse hay/ chance for salmonella with my IR horse

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Chickens and ducks do pose a Salmonella risk https://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/backyardpoultry-05-20/index.html and it is estimated about 20% of chickens are infected. It would be wise to keep the chickens out of horse feeding areas. However, many horses carry and even shed Salmonella. Other potential sources are rodents, other birds. https://ceh.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/health-topics/salmonellosis
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

He looks bright and generally healthy, about BCS 4.5. He would look different if he wasn't stretched out in a Saddlebred stance. The topline loss is partially muscle and partially fat. If the somewhat lax belly is related it does look like a PPID effect but can't rule out diet without a hay analysis. Same recommendations as before. I also don't see vitamin E on your list of supplements. He should be getting 2000 IU/day from either soft human gelcaps of E in oil (not glycerin) or Uckele Liquid E.

He  may also have reached the point where his chewing forces are decreased and he doesn't process hay as well as when he was younger. If that's the case he'll do better having a large proportion of his calories coming from soaked cubes.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Effects of long term high insulin levels

 

I’ve uploaded body pics taken today into our picture folder. He was body clipped at the beginning of September but had grown out a lot so it’s a little hard to see his body condition. I taped him at 800-820 pounds today. 
--
Beth & Flame & Diana

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




Re: New Member - Howdy

 

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the ECIR Group.  This welcome goes out to all new members after their first post.  It’s nice to see hay growers showing an interest in what drives their customer’s needs.  My hay supplier could not believe, when I explained a few years back, that I was looking for hay that was low in sugar, not high.  Now he knows to cut my hay first thing in the morning.  We’ve had a very dry summer and I’m concerned that the sugar will be higher than usual this year and I will need to soak it.  Anyway, you’ll read a lot about that here as most of us are very concerned about our hay.

What follows is the formal ECIR welcome, where you will find lots to read.  One of our principal concerns is diet, which you might find interesting.  Please let us know if you have questions or are having trouble finding your way around.

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 


--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


New Member - Howdy

Firstqualityhay@...
 

Hello - we are a new member here.  One of our hay customers recommended we come here to read and learn more about various ECIR issues. We produce small square bales of grass hay.  We forage test our hay via Equi-Analytical’s wet chemistry Trainer 603 test and our hay historically has been low sugar hay (ESC+starch).

 

I look forward to reading and learning here.

 

Please don’t hesitate to ask us any questions.

 

Thank you for allowing me to join!

--
Bill J. in VA 2020
FirstQualityHay.com


chickens in horse hay/ chance for salmonella with my IR horse

Daisy Shepherd
 

at my boarding place, they have free roaming chickens.  tonite as my horse ate his soaked hay( 4# is what he gets soaked  other is dry), there were 3 chickens scratching and eating with him. my concern is salmonella;  do i need to worry?   my history : about 20 yrs ago my morgan mare had salmonella that probably came from chickens and ducks that frequented her living space;  vet diagnosed;  she was extremely ill, vet thought she might die; she did not but was extremely ill for about 10 days before she started to improve.  i did change boarding places.   i would not choose to have my tiko  go through this.  can some one with knowledge on this please give me some advice?  thank you so much, daisy and tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0

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