Date   

Re: apf and veil

Sherry Morse
 

LJ,

That should be fine to start with but you may want to have more on hand in case you need to go past the 5 days at restart.




Re: chickens in horse hay/ chance for salmonella with my IR horse

Daisy Shepherd
 

thank you dawn.  since my horses are boarded, i have no control;  i have voiced what i know about poultry and salmonella and my past experience  but it is up to them as  it is their property. i do daily rake  the areas where little chicken feet have gone that are in my horse area but i do not know what else i can do.  thank you for your message, daisy and tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Riosa needs help looking forward feedback

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Heather,

Dr. Kellon already answered your question about trailering.  Perhaps you missed it?  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/256327




Success syringing metformin

 

At Kirsten's suggestion, I'll  summarize what works for us to syringe metformin twice a day. Dr Kellon's suggestions are summarized in the metformin information in Files. I suggest starting with the right equipment before even trying to syringe. 
1. I bought a new inexpensive coffee grinder. It cost the same as good manual pill grinders and turns the hard 1000mg metformin tablets into powder much better. 
2. I bought the large size Wild Cherry Flavored Milk of Magnesia. 26 oz. lasts about a week. 
3. The missing link was reusable 60 cc catheter tip syringes with silicone O-rings. The plunger with a silicone O ring never sticks. These syringes are manufactured for feeding baby animals (Squirrel syringes) or for enteral feeding.  https://www.amazon.com/UrnConcern-Feeding-Syringe-Reusable-Silicone/dp/B081ZFZD5C/

I grind the metformin dose to a fine powder and pour the powder into 45 ml pre-measured milk of magnesia. I cover and shake a few times until the grittiness of the ground metformin is mostly gone, about 5-8 minutes. I draw half the mixture into each of two syringes. Dividing the dose allows me to comfortably position my thumb on the plunger and smoothly syringe one-handed. My horse is cooperative so long as I can syringe slowly in roughly 3 squirts per syringe. When we're done, I wipe her lips, especially the corners, with a very wet cloth. Then I rinse her mouth with a hose. I doubt this mixture of metformin and milk of magnesia causes sores, but undissolved metformin grit could, so I still rinse out her mouth. As a reward, I give my horse a tiny treat feed (about a cup of FORCO for now) to get the saliva flowing. 

Hope this helps anyone frustrated by disposable single-use syringes.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Re: Power Of Trimming - Feedback From Chiropractor

Lynn
 

Amen Kirsten! You said it - it was an eye opener for me - I've often heard the phrase "no feet no horse" but the extent to which his feet were impacting his body just didn't penetrate until she began to exam/adjust him. She was very impressed with Lavinia's skill sets. I explained how the ECIR group works and the wonderful volunteers/experts we have. She said it's wonderful how technology has made collaboration and assistance on this level possible (regardless of distance) to the great advantage of our horses. She said in the past a vet or farrier likely would have just raised their hands with no real solution for the horse.  Relevante and I are very, very fortunate.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


apf and veil

LJ Friedman
 

i’m wondering if this strategy is correct.:
I start at apf five days before giving CP, and I’m continuing for five days while on CP for total of 10 days. Does that sound like enough if no veil is showing? Of course I will have to get more if I notice  veil signs after the five days of apf while on medicine
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: High insulin again- metformin, mare cycles

 

Thanks, Kirsten.
I can post what solved the syringing puzzle for me, if that's what you mean. I will start a new subject heading. As for exercise, yes, I plan to, as soon as temperatures drop to a point where I can tolerate being out in the sun.  Still in the 90's here much of the day, expected to continue into next week. If I get the bib clip done, that will be a start.  
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Re: Riosa needs help looking forward feedback

hdavis
 

Thanks Lavinia for the ideas.  I do think it was something she got stuck in her mouth and each day she is getting better and better but I still want to get the vet out or trailer her to a vet. 


So I posted asking 2 questions.

1) best option for sedation if I need one keeping in mind she is on Invokana.  From my research it looks like maybe Dormasedan?  We tried Valium before and got some weird reaction so want to stay away from that.


2.) if Rio is well controlled with low insulin and glucose levels and not lame, when can she safely be trailered?  Do I have to wait until her hoof has completely grown out? 


She is doing well today with little pawing and chewing issues.  Fingers crossed we are on our way to getting the issue resolved.


--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Re: Power Of Trimming - Feedback From Chiropractor

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Lynn, Relevante's story has been so encouraging and as if any affirmation of Lavinia's skills were needed but it's things like this that really show how valuable her advice is and how the whole body is influenced by the trim!  This makes me so happy!!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: High insulin again- metformin, mare cycles

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Cass, I hope Dr Kellon has some advice for you.  You certainly now have mastered the dosing via syringe of Metformin!  I think you should share that with the group when you have time... 

The only suggestions I have are can you get her ACTH into the mid-teens (as others have found to be beneficial), and can you increase exercise (right now I think your CH indicates she is sedentary?).  Thank goodness she is not in pain, if you can increase exercise it might be a good time to start?  (I'm not sure what the smoke situation is there right now though)

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Very high ACTH, no symotoms

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Bonnie,

I don't see why a high ACTH couldn't be present with no signs.  Most people don't test until there are signs of disease so maybe there are lots of horses with no signs but high ACTH out there?  There are multiple hormones involved in PPID and perhaps if the others aren't elevated as well you won't see signs of PPID.  I do still wonder if the lack of signs means there is no... 

..."hypertrophy, hyperplasia, and microadenoma formation within the pars intermedia. These conditions contribute to excessive ACTH production, and the enlarged gland places mechanical pressure on adjacent tissues, inhibiting function of the pars distalis and pars nervosa. The resultant functional changes and the excessive release of ACTH into the body result in clinical disease"
https://www.vetfolio.com/learn/article/equine-essentials-equine-cushings-syndrome-pituitary-pars-intermedia-dysfunction

If there are no signs of clinical disease other than grossly elevated ACTH, then is there still enlargement of the pars intermedia?  Perhaps there is no definitive answer to that question beyond an autopsy.  As Martha indicated in her reply to you previously  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/256192
ACTH isn't the only indication that PPID is well-controlled and other hormones are involved.  Dr Kellon has also said:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/255735 : There is no direct link between ACTH  and insulin levels.  Studies have shown cortisol is often normal and much of the measured ACTH  may be inactive. However, we use ACTH as an indicator of control over the PPID.  ACTH is actually  only a small fraction of the hormones released by the intermediate lobe, and all of them can have a negative effect on insulin sensitivity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6141515 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3035302
AND 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/215025 : Also important to note there are some PPID horses whose hormonal profile doesn't include obviously elevated ACTH.  In fact, this group founder's mare was like that! It probably shouldn't be surprising when you consider that of all the hormones put out by the pituitary in PPID, ACTH is by far at the lowest concentration. We're way past the time to switch to testing POMCs across the board or alpha-MSH instead.
So I dont think there is an obvious answer to your question about whether extremely elevated ACTH but no symptoms means the disease is present.  Maybe Joseph is in the earliest stages and early treatment will reduce the severity of his PPID (signs, such as laminitis, and hypertrophy of the PI gland) as he ages.  Is it possible there are subtle signs you may have missed?  If you notice any changes while he is on pergolide that could be an indication that what you thought was normal for him is not (similar to Martha's experience with skin conditions in her horse Logo).  Or maybe Joseph will never develop the signs of PPID and always have high ACTH, regardless of whether or not he is treated.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Riosa needs help looking forward feedback

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

i Heather,

Just to add another possibility to consider.

One of my boys went thru something similar: was opening and closing his mouth, twisting his head around, licking his lips and generally moving is tongue around inside his mouth. I tried flushing his mouth, examining it for something being stuck in his teeth and couldn't find anything. Called the vet, who also suspected something was stuck so came out. After examining him thoroughly, it turned out he was having some gas issues and as soon as he passed that, he was fine. It happened a few more time, on and off over a couple of months, then stopped completely. Never did figure out exactly what was causing the problem, so I'm assuming there was something about some of the hay that wasn't agreeing with him 100% as he lived on a dry lot.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: High ACTH no symptoms

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Oh my goodness,  I see I've mixed up Brenda and Bonnie's 2 posts!   No wonder Brenda's case history for Stormy doesn't have the results Bonnie was sharing!  Lol

Brenda, most of what I wrote above still applies to you I think, but you can definitely disregard this comment:

Was Stormy the one with the mild symptoms and baseline ACTH of 176 more recently?  That higher baseline ACTH during seasonal rise is normally considered a positive for early PPID here.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Higher than 10% NSC survey by Dr. Kellon

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Here it is, Judy:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/254507

You can also find this by opening the ECIR Group home page, then scrolling down to the bottom where it lists the top hashtags. Click on Polls.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Trimmer coming on Wednesday

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Judy,

I've added the mark-ups for Bugsy's trim to his album. I already sent this info to you in time for the actual trim but for those interested and/or following his journey:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

Bugsy's trim has come a long way - kudos to you for making that happen. Kudos to your farrier for being willing to try doing something outside his comfort zone. There appear to be definite improvements in the concavity, which usually goes along with increases in sole depth. Toes are moving back nicely; heels have made some improvements but they are really the biggest sticking point now. Getting the flaring in the heel area fully controlled will help, as will making sure Bugsy is always landing heel-first when moving at any speed more than an ambling walk.
 
LF lateral: Blue area still needs to back up more. This is the area in front of where the sole appears to ridge when looking at it from below. You can see the spaghetti-like texture that tells you it's laminar wedge material. Green line is the visual of how the hoof capsule will eventually be aligned. Orange line shows where the heels will eventually reside.
 
LF lateral sole plane: Lime line follows the top of the ridge. Bevel everything ahead of that away even more. Lay the rasp flat across the hoof side-to-side. Measure the depth of the collateral grooves just behind the tip of the frog from their deepest point to the bottom of the rasp. If that is 3/4", sole depth is good. If the toe ridge is taller than that point, you can lower that to the height of the rasp. Then measure the collateral groove depth as at their deepest point in the back of the foot - want 1". Any more than that means you can shave the difference off the heels. Short blue lines are all small areas that can be trimmed away to get rid of loose tags and the hooks that the heels are developing.
 
LF sole plane: Yellow circle contains that central sulcus crack that is still present. Keep up with treating that several times per week until it closes up entirely. small blue hashes are the same ones in the lateral sole plane shot.
 
LF sole: Solid blue lines are where the perimeter should be: toe back, heel flares in, light leveling then ramping of the backs of the heel buttresses. Hashed areas are what needs to be removed. Yellow hashes are along the leading edges of the bars, which can be lowered slightly as they appear ready to crumble off.
 
RF lateral: Blue means toe back some more, orange is where the heels will eventually end up, green line is how the dorsal wall will eventually align.
 
RF lateral sole plane: Lime line runs along the top of the toe ridge. Blue area is remaining laminar wedge that can be eliminated. Short blue hashed lines are bits of loose periople and curling-over heel buttress that can be tidied up.
 
RF sole: Blue in the toe is ahead of the toe ridge and can be removed. Blue in the heels is where the subtle heel flaring can be addressed. Yellow hashes run along the tops of the bars, where they can be cleaned up as they appear to be crumbling away.
 
LH lateral: Same general notes as the fronts but note how the coronary band is pulled down and forward as it reaches the heels - whereas in the fronts, it is fairly level.  Rocker the back of the heel buttress lightly to help it to start standing more upright.
 
LH sole plane: Purple hashes are where to add the rockers/ramps to the heels. Blue hashes are the tops of the bars that can be lowered a bit.
 
LH sole: Lime hashed area at the tip of the frog is some overgrowth that has twisted medially. It appears to just be "hanging out" there, so can be removed if it's not firmly attached. Solid blue line is the new perimeter, with the blue hashed area what needs to be brought inward - esp. in the toe and the heels. Yellow hashed areas are the tops of the bars that can be tidied p a bit.
 
RH lateral: Same discussion as the other three feet.
 
RH sole: Same idea as the LH.
 
As before, padded boots as needed - meaning any time he is the least bit tender or isn't landing heel first at any speed greater than a walk. Never want to see toe-first landings as those are both an indication something else isn't correct and they cause damage.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Trimmer coming on Wednesday

Judy and Bugsy
 

This year’s hay analysis is now posted. 
--

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 




Re: Power Of Trimming - Feedback From Chiropractor

Lynn
 

Thanks Heather!  Tracy - you provided the valuable information about the Renegade Vipers prior to the pandemic and i so appreciate it. It was so helpful to have input from a Paso Fino owner as I found boots can really interfere with their gait. We weren't ready at the time but i filed the info away. I did ask my farrier about the shells. He does not have them. But what I am doing is ...I had the caregiver hold the tape measure both ways and took pictures and I'm providing photos of his lateral and sole views. They say on their website that if you can send photos they will help guide you. So hopefully we'll get the right size the first time and they will fit his hoof shape. Fingers crossed.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Power Of Trimming - Feedback From Chiropractor

Buzz
 


Re: Power Of Trimming - Feedback From Chiropractor

hdavis
 


Re: Power Of Trimming - Feedback From Chiropractor

tracy.l.dore@...
 

Awesome news Lynn!  I have Vipers I use on Salsa.  Have two other kinds of boots too - but the Vipers are the go-to for riding.  The regular Renegades did not fit his hooves at all.
I found a farrier that had the fitting shells and was glad I was able to use those before I ordered.

--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827