Date   

Re: Prascend and coat growth

Lynn
 

Hi Nancy - when Relevante was diagnosed with PPID (it was February 2018) he looked like Chewbacco....his hair was literally almost two inches long. When I started him on Prascend his symptoms began to recede. I did have to clip him that May but in late fall his winter coat grew in normally and shed normally the following spring. Since starting Prascend and then converting to compounded pergolide (because we had to go to 2 mg) his coat has been normal at all times of the year. I hope these observations help. 
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Prascend and coat growth

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi there, has anyone experienced an increase in coat growth when starting prascend?

This year Vinnie has put on quite a bit more coat than he normally does and I wondered if this could have anything to do with starting prascend? His acth is in normal range when we tested in June but it was higher than it had been the last two tests so when I noticed his body starting to look more metabolic in late July we decided to start him on a low dose of prascend through fall rise.

I am not sure if it was timing but he dropped a ton of coat in early August and then started putting on his winter coat late Aug early Sept. 

My acupuncturist said that she had noted that with several horses this year having more coat than normal and noted that with the smoke cover being so bad here in no cal it could have made the days seem shorter earlier in the year than normal, hence increasing coat growth.  This sort if makes sense.  But I was wondering if anyone noticed heavier coat growth when starting prascend?

Thanks Nancy 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Favorite boots for starting work

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

So many great options! Thank you all so much.  I will research these different boots to see which I think Vinnie will be the most comfortable in this next phase of his healing. I am super excited 🥰🥰
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Favorite boots for starting work

Collaeyn Hazen
 

I am another scoot boot fan, and My Monty wore them for turnout for a year. But with Monty’s laminitis this spring, his hoof shape isn’t suitable for them right now. He is finally comfortable for turnout barefoot, and for riding I am using flex boots. They are appropriate for tough use but we are just walking (mostly) at this point. He clomped right down my street with them our first ride after his healing (he told me where we were going to ride and took me to our favorite riding place) and obviously had no discomfort at all. The flex boots are interesting as they are really flexible and can work for a hoof that is oddly shaped.  I’ll probably go back to scoots eventually when Monty’s toes are back where they belong but having another option was really helpful.  
--
Collaeyn, Monty, Shark, and Duke
Sewell, NJ
June 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Collaeyn%20and%20Monty
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248978   (Monty pics)
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=250635   (Shark pics)


Re: Favorite boots for starting work

Tracy
 

My thin-soled Paso goes well in Renegade Vipers for riding - they are my "go to" riding boot.  I have Scoot boots for him too - but they offer less protection than the Vipers and I don't think he would be handle most of my area trails very well in them.
He also has a pair of Old Macs (think the Gen 2 ones) a friend gave to me because she didn't need them anymore.  They are 'clunky' on him - really mess his gait up for riding.
I've used all three when Salsa has been a bit ouchy on his dry lot even though they are not therapeutic boots (and luckily all three gave him instant relief).

--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: Insulin still over 200

MPA Justa Tstar
 

Hi Everyone! 

Jennifer- I have a horse that had ACTH well under control with Prascend- but still suffered from refractory insulin. Despite a strict diet of NuZu Stabul1 and Safe Starch Forage & absolutions ZERO access to grass/weeds) his insulin was still over 200. 

As a “Hail Mary”, we started Invokana in March of 2020. After a month of 1 tablet per day, his insulin dropped to 38- the lowest it’s been in years. 

I have had his kidney & liver enzymes checked & everything is within normal limits. His Triglycerides are slightly elevated. 

He is on 5mg Pergolide, 1mg Prascend & 1 invokana per day and is trimmed every 4 weeks. 

This medicine has saved his life along with all of the wonderful moderators & veterinarians associated with ECIR. We are so grateful!! 


Hope this information helps & watching him happily trot around & canter pain free makes it all worth while! 

 

 



--
Adrienne & PJ
Atlanta GA 2018


Re: Adjust RX?

Nancy C
 

Hi Natalie

Hope you are well.

Just so you have another voice....

With each of my three PPID guys I tried to keep their ACTH well under 30 during seasonal rise. This is true for Beau -- who was very sensitive to being lamintic, and for Gabe and Skip, who both were/are not EMS/IR. I like to see them under 20, Beau especially for control of his insulin.

Would be great if you could get the insulin down by lowering ACTH.

I'd probably start with 1 mg, but if you have signs of being out of control, I'd want to keep an eye on their resolution and raise the pergolide as needed to control.

It looks like you are testing after seasonal rise. I'd keep doing that.

Hope this helps.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


Re: APF Primer for Newbies

Tamara Gonsor
 

This is an extremely helpful thread! Thank you ALL! Because I am about to start all of this. 
--
Tamara G. in Arizona 2020
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tamara%20and%20Malik
Malik Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252564


Re: Adjust RX?

LJ Friedman
 

Do you notice any symptoms that have increased? I don’t think those numbers are too bad. I believe I would be quite happy to have them
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Adjust RX?

Natalie Washburn
 

Hi there,

My gelding's labwork came back and his numbers moved back into Uncompensated and Poorly Compensated categories.  He's currently on 4mg of compounded Pergolide.  I would think that we should increase his dose. - but how much do we increase it?  1mg? I'll copy the latest results below.  Full info in updated case history that is linked in my signature.

Sept 2019: Insulin 24.12, Glucose 89, ACTH 38.2 (3 mg Pergolide)
Jan 2020: Insulin 13.9, Glucose 90, ACTH 12.6 (4 mg Pergolide)
Oct 2020: Insulin 30.11, Glucose 74, ACTH 28.3 (4 mg Pergolide)

Thank you for all your help!

~Natalie and Jay in TX

Nov 2002

NRC & NAT 2008

Jay - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Natalie%20and%20Jay

Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1902&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Favorite boots for starting work

 

My favorite boot is one that fits my horse's movement. Sometimes hooves in rehab have trims that are still "in process" in terms of toe length.  My suggestions is to measure that hoof at least 3 times. Trace it on a piece of white paper and double check the measurements from the manufacturers you like. Then look for a boot that will fit with the kind of padding you think is needed. 

While I boot in Easyboot Trails for hoof pain --with only the thinnest gel pads-- for Cayuse, Renegades are the only boots to hug the hoof and never rotate in work. They can be custom-ordered with padding, but I wouldn't say they offer a lot of cushioning. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Re: More on IGF-1 Receptors and Laminitis

Lynn
 

This and the information about Pergolide is very interesting. I forwarded the information on Pergolide to the barn owner [and barn butler!] to help them understand the importance of a PPID horse not missing doses. Thanks!
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


More on IGF-1 Receptors and Laminitis

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

A theory has been circulating for several years that says laminitis is caused by insulin stimulating IGF-1 receptors. IGF stands for insulin-like growth hormone. The laminar cells have very few insulin receptors and don't require insulin to take up glucose so attention turned to the more numerous IGF-1 receptors which help control cell division. Problem is that insulin binding to those receptors is very weak, at least 100X weaker than IGF-1 itself.

A new study tested the ability of an anti-IGF-1 receptor to prevent the development of laminitis. They gave it by isolated limb perfusion to one hoof only before starting an insulin infusion.  Long story short:

"Balanced against some compelling data that mAb11attenuated the effects of insulin on certain histological variables, is the practical clinical observation that the treatment did not eliminate, attenuate or delay the signs of lameness. "

Even if it had been effective, having to administer it before the threat of laminitis would make it of little use.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0239261
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New Information on Mechanism of Action of Pergolide

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

LJ,

No, nothing different.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New Information on Mechanism of Action of Pergolide

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Francis,

PPID is caused by insufficient dopamine. Pergolide substitutes for it and this new information shows it also increases dopamine. L-theanine isn't involved.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New Information on Mechanism of Action of Pergolide

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Good point, Kathleen.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New Information on Mechanism of Action of Pergolide

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

We don't know actual requirements but tyrosine is nonessential meaning it can be synthesized (from phenylalanine). No tyrosine deficiency has been identified and there are good amounts in forage - both tyrosine and phenylalanine.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New Information on Mechanism of Action of Pergolide

LJ Friedman
 

Based on this information, are we being asked to do anything differently in managing our horses?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: New Information on Mechanism of Action of Pergolide

Frances C.
 

Dear Dr. K, all this is too much for my feeble brain. Do we want to increase Dopamine? Would it be appropriate to feed L-theanine, a derivitive of green tea? I have been giving 1/2 teaspoon per day.

----- Original Message -----
From: Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
To: main@ECIR.groups.io
Sent: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 13:44:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Special] [ECIR] New Information on Mechanism of Action of Pergolide

It has been established that PPID is caused by decreased production of dopamine by neurons in the hypothalamus which normally keep activity of the intermediate pituitary lobe in check. We talk about pergolide working because it is a dopamine agonist which stimulates D1 and D2 dopamine receptors, in essence substituting for the lost dopamine. A new study [October 2020] from Michigan State has proven there is more to it than that.

Research looking at the levels of dopamine in the pituitary of aged, young and treated (1 mg pergolide per 500 kg for 6 months) vs untreated PPID horses has found levels of dopamine in the pituitary are actually increased by pergolide.  The activity of tyrosine hydroxylate enzyme, which generates dopamine from tyrosine, was also increased in the hypothalamus.

Based on data from other species, the researchers hypothesized that pergolide  allowed dopamine to reaccumulate in dopamineric neurons by decreasing the demand for it - substituting for some of the natural dopamine. Activating the D1 and D2 receptors may also provide positive feedback to the remaining neurons, resulting in increased tyrosine hydroxylase activity.

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001




--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Insulin still over 200

Frances C.
 

Thank you Dr. K. Good to know
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382

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