Date   

Re: Length of laminitis

marlene_ladendorff@...
 

I am new to the group and not sure if I'm following protocol for communications.

My 18 year old TB mare is demonstrating classic founder symptoms: all weight on her back end, can barely move, used to lay down a lot and not so much now.  She has foundered before in 2017 and 2019 but very very very minor compared to this.  She does not have a cresty neck or long hair like Cushings.  I feed my horses apples once in a while to flush their liver (according to a vet) and I'm wondering if that is what caused this episode to happen.  Symptoms started very slowly the first of Sept (feeding apples) and has progressed to where she is now.  Xrays show slight rotation of coffin bones and slight modeling of left coffin bone.  I have a journeyman farrier who got her shod properly but she is NOT getting any better.  I've had her on 2 grams of Bute twice a day until I caught her leaning and bouncing her belly (right side, always the right side) off her water bucket and knew I had to stop the Bute.  So....I committed the cardinal sin and put her on my ringbone horses' Meloxicam.....  She seemed to improve minutely and is not having the gastric problems now, but has plateaued and is still in great pain.  It's been about 5 weeks.  When is enough, enough?  Her front feet are cold and there is no digital pulse.  Do I need to have her tested for insulin resistance or something?

Y'all are my last hope.  This horse makes my life whole.  This is killing me.  Please help.

Marlene
Idaho
2020

--
Marlene L in Idaho 2020


Re: Insulin Testing

Kim Rice
 

That is a very interesting result.  Thank you Dr. Kellon.
--
Kim R, Lafayette, CA  2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Shomee


Re: Questions concerning recent PPID diagnosis

anneefrancis@...
 

Thanks Sherry,

I'm looking at the Brooks enhancer on MadBarn - am I adding NSC + Starch?  I always understood that EWC + Starch = NSC.  I'm not clear how to do the math with the units that they present but I'll take your word for it.  It's so funny (but not funny at all,)  I've had the Brooks representative defend this product up and down, telling me that it's acceptable. 

I've also always understood that AAKG loses its potency completely when mixed with water so I've always mixed my sups with Cocosoya (probably too much) and the Brook's Enhancer.   I would happily feed her a mash of the ODTBC with her sups if possible or I see that Madbarn has a couple of products that might be suitable instead of Enhancer.  

This might not go over well, but she is free fed hay in a tight hay net based on the idea that she's not stressed by hunger.  She doesn't gorge but it sounds as though it's far too much.   Feeling like I have to start at ground zero.  First step is hay balancing and I'm having it tested this week to get that ball rolling.  

Thanks for the guidance!

Best,

Anne 
May 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anne%20and%20Tricana


Missed Dose of Prascend

Carla Anderson Peters
 

Hello,
I forgot to give Cupcake her dose of Prascend last night, and realized it at 6am this morning.  I did give it to her.  Should I give her her "typical" evening dose...that is when I give it to her.  
Thanks!
Carla
--
Carla

 

December 2013, WI

Cupcake and Gunnar's Case Histories 

Cupcake's Photos

Gunnar's Photos 

Ω



Re: Insulin Testing

riggslippert@...
 

Thank you, Dr. Kellon, for highlighting this study.  I find it interesting in light of multiple paired results on my horses in which the EDTA samples (run at Cornell) were consistently higher than the serum samples (run at Idexx).  I'm not sure if the same types of assays (RIA vs CLIA) are used in both labs.  Do you have any idea why Cornell continues to indicate that either sample type can be used for the insulin assay?  Has anyone run paired samples (EDTA and serum) at Cornell?  It was also surprising how stable the serum samples were, in spite of the delay in separating them.
--
Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102




Re: Appetite veil? Lameness #Thyro-L

renee lefthand <rollykoal@...>
 

sorry for all the spelling errors ....she was started on a full pill and dropped to half .....she will eat hay and basically nothing else ....apologies for the bad typing trying to use my phone 
--
Renee SD 2020


Re: Insulin Testing

Sherry Morse
 

I would take it to mean if there's a delay in transit or you send the sample and it arrives on an off day (Cornell only does insulin testing on Monday, Wednesday and Thursday) you have less to worry about using a red or heparin tube.

As per the study:
Results: An overall effect of time, tube type and temperature was identified (P = .01, P = 0.001, and P = 0.001, respectively). Serum and heparinized samples had similar concentrations for 3 days at 20°C and 8 days at 4°C; however, after 3 days at 20°C, heparinized samples had significantly higher insulin concentrations (P = .004, P = .03, and P = .03 on consecutive days).
Conclusions and clinical importance: These results suggest an ideal protocol to determine insulin concentrations involves using serum or heparinized samples with analysis occurring within 3 days at 20°C or 8 days at 4°C.
 
20°C=68°F
4°C=39.2°F
--

Thanks,
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)
EC Primary Response

PA 2014

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet/Scutch%20Case%20History.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891

 


Appetite veil? Lameness #Thyro-L

renee lefthand <rollykoal@...>
 

my haorse was very lame some rotation and diagnosed with cushings and insulin was very very high started diet and half them full pill she will not eat ....dropped to half ....she also was getting better and is lame again over 5 to 6 week period .....vet office and farrier are out for a get days due to covid.....what can j do get her to eat so she get what she needs ....also for pain relief I tried many things....she is still heavy as well ....any ideas ....would thyroid l help ? But she will not eat anything but hay ....suggestions....her tests were done September peak of seasonal rise ....thank u 
--
Renee SD 2020


Re: Insulin Testing

LJ Friedman
 

What is meant by delayed?  most samples usually arrive frozen so what does a delay mean?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Questions concerning recent PPID diagnosis

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Anne,

  1. Metformin is for control of insulin levels that do not come down with diet and exercise. Until you know what Tricana's current insulin level is you won't know if she's a candidate for metformin or if just a diet adjustment is in order.
  2. Thyro-L can help with jump starting weight loss but I would look at tightening up the diet first. More on this below.
  3. I believe you said your vet already pulled blood for insulin and glucose although I don't see those results in your file.  If not, those are the only 2 things you need to check at this time.
  4. Assuming that you are looking to balance your hay you can find a list of people who can do this in the HayBalancing.pdf file here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing
  5. APF is not available in Canada as per recent discussions ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/255925) so you're fine to continue on the current supplement program
As far as the current diet, we recommend a TOTAL intake of hay and concentrates that is either 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal weight - whichever is higher.  For a horse that's meant to weigh 900 pounds the higher of those two amounts is 18 pounds a day which is 7 pounds less than you are currently feeding.

Before looking at Thryo-L my suggestion would be to get the diet tighter - if you're using the ODTBC to carry supplements, can you do less? 

Brooks Enhancer - if the numbers here are correct (https://madbarn.com/feeds/enhancer-brooks-feeds/) this is not a suitable feed for an IR horse and based on their own feeding chart (http://www.brooksfeeds.com/pdf/products/Enhancer.pdf) you're feeding much more of it than needed. It would be best to cut that out completely and have your hay balanced to determine what vitamins/minerals are needed for Tricana.

Then, whatever the difference is between the amount of ODTBC you're using and the 18 pound total can be made up in hay, but it should be weighed so that Tricana is only eating a set amount each day.  That should help with weight loss without needing to add in Thyro-L.




Re: Insulin Testing

Sherry Morse
 

LJ,

As per Dr. Kellon's note if testing is going to be delayed Heparin is the best option.




Re: Insulin Testing

LJ Friedman
 


-- Vet. replied back that he’s been using the red tops. So I guess that’s, better than purple.?  assuming  heparin is preferred over red? 

LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Insulin Testing

LJ Friedman
 

I forwarded this message to my vet requesting heparin  tubes to use for a future testing. I’m wondering why we’re getting so much research of things that we need to change up lately?  Of course, thank you so much for posting
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Questions concerning recent PPID diagnosis

anneefrancis@...
 

I've been doing a lot of amazing reading while formulating my plan for managing Tricana's recent PPID diagnosis.   

I have a couple of questions. 
#1.  Would you start off with Pergolide and L-Thyroxin to counter the weight gain?  I've also read of people using Metformin, thoughts?  
#2.  What companion blood tests would you run?  I'm going to do a consult to make sure I'm meeting her nutritional needs.  Dr. Kellon do you still do this?  Or any recommendations?
#3. Regarding the Pergolide veil,  I'm interested in APF but Tricana also has DSLD and IR and is on Dr. Kellon's protocol - AAKG 2:1 and Jiaogulan.  Would you stop the protocol and use only APF or could I do both?  It sounds as though APF works similarly?
Finally, #3.  Fellow Canadians, where do you source APF from?

Thank you in advance,

Anne and Tricana
May 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anne%20and%20Tricana


Costco - Vitamin E Caps

Lorna Cane
 

In Kingston, at least, Webber 's Vit E, 400IU, is $4.00 off , for 2 weeks.
Fifteen dollars for 300 soft gels.
I'm not sure how they run their sales,wrt other provinces, or in the US.
But might be worth checking it out.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Length of laminitis

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Morning discomfort that improves over the day points to a circulatory issue. I would start her on Jiaogula when you begin the Equioxx taper. Also very important to get and maintain a tight trim. It will increase the rate of hoof growth.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Prascend and coat growth

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: Updated Case History, please help

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Tamara,

Even the equine endocrinology group, university based, no longer recommends fasting for insulin testing https://sites.tufts.edu/equineendogroup/files/2020/09/200592_EMS_Recommendations_Bro-FINAL.pdf but you should feed nothing but hay.

 Fasting can also affect ACTH readings https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24906932/ - lowers it significantly.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Insulin Testing

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

This study found that insulin testing of samples taken into an EDTA plasma tube (purple top) showed significantly lower levels than serum (red top) or heparin (green top) samples. Best stability when testing is going to be delayed beyond 3 days is heparinized samples.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31617618/

If you are using Cornell's ACTH/insulin/leptin panel the sample will be EDTA unless the vet also draws a separate serum sample and requests that be used for insulin.

Bottom Line: Use serum or heparin tubes for insulin testing. Varying sample type between tests will not give you accurate results.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Prascend and coat growth

hdavis
 

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