Date   

Winter Laminitis and prevention

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi all, 

I will preface this by saying I am a little paranoid because I never want Vinnie to have to go through whst he endured the last 18 months. So I may sound a little crazy but I am going to ask.... I have been reading about booting/leg covers to prevent winter laminitis due to temperature.  We are in Northern Cal, and we have been in the high 70' s during the day and then dropping to just above 40 at night. Vinnie is in a box stall with padded shavings and has access to a 24x24 paddock.. would it be premature to boot and put leg covers on now?  Considering all we have been through am I being overly unnecessarily cautious? Is there any harm booting and using back on track quick wraps as shipping like boots to keep legs and feet warm?

Thx Nancy 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


New to soaking hay - questions

Hilary McGregor
 

I've started soaking our hay because test results indicate it's in the 9-11% range for ESC + starch. Our gelding's blood test results after a week on the hay indicated compensated IR. It's the first time we've tested him, and Amika, his sister came back not IR! I've posted other threads on this.

As it seems we will be soaking for the long term with this hay, I have some questions and curiosities about soaking...

  1. Should we test the soaked hay? How in the heck does one do that? I mean, how do we get a representative sample, soaked in the usual method, and dried before sending? Any tips?
  2. Does soaking hay reduce ESC? 
  3. Is there an average % of DE that is reduced by soaking hay?
  4. We are soaking 10 lbs of hay in about 170 litres of cold water for 1 hour. Is that enough to make an impact? 
  5. Are there any risks of soaking hay in softened water? 
Many thanks for any insights as I work my way through this!

--
Hilary and Amika
Prince George, BC, Canada
Joined July 2019
Amika's Case History Folder
Amika's Photos Folder


Re: Requesting assistance interpreting insulin/glucose results

Hilary McGregor
 

Thank you again, so much for your responses Dr. Kellon. 

I'm finding myself still trying to figure out our situation - understanding our management practices and options, and the meaning of blood tests.

Curious if anyone can help me better understand, for example, the goal for a horse like our gelding who is compensated insulin, high insulin responder. Is the goal to adapt our management of him so that his blood tests indicate that he is not IR? Is that possible? I assume we want to try and get his glucose and insulin into normal ranges, is this right?

We currently have our year's supply of hay that has come back in the 9-11% range for ESC + starch as-fed (not DM) (NIR and wet chem test results in my folder). Wet chem was for only 20 bales, not representative of the year's supply. The NIR is more representative, but has a wider range for error.

The blood tests were done a week into feeding the hay un-soaked. Does this mean we really do need to be soaking it for this guy? When should we test him again to see how he is managing with it?

Thank you for any insights. Soaking hay all winter is going to be a hassle, but I've got my mind wrapped around it and am prepared to keep it up if needed. But if it's not needed, it sure is extra work and use of resources. 

--
Hilary and Amika
Prince George, BC, Canada
Joined July 2019
Amika's Case History Folder
Amika's Photos Folder


Re: Off Feed Again

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

LJ because is is important to me that she is in the loop with everything. She has been instrumental in getting Vinnie to where he is and since he is not PPID,  he is in normal ranges w/o prascend --we only began pergolide because his acth was normal but higher than it had been conpared with previous tests, and he started to look more metabolic (cresty and more fat pads-- even though.his diet had been dialed in) we started him on a low dose for during seasonal rise intending to stop in December and test in January. .. 🥰🥰
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Off Feed Again

LJ Friedman
 

Why do you have a calling to the vet? Won’t you get the most correct answers. suggestions ie here?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Off Feed Again

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Marsha, my super sensitive guy did the same again today after 5 days on his full dose he went off his mash today.... and he is eating hay a lot slower.  Because he is such a sensitive fellow, I am going to go back to the last dose he was comfortable at which was three quarters of the full dose.  I.have a call into my vet too to see what I should do.  At least we have this group for guidance and moral support. 🥰🥰 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Off Feed Again

Buzz
 

Martha, are you saying the pergolide is not as effective during the seasonal rise and takes longer during the rise to take effect?


--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Re: decreased water intake and invokana

LJ Friedman
 

The weather has changed in the past few days yes. So maybe that’s it. Last few days have been very cold. Though my concern is when he first arrived at this facility in April I think the weather was equally cooler  as opposed to now and he would drink 18 to 20 gallons.I only know his water consumption starting April 1 to current. As his previous facility use the auto machines.  Let’s just hope this few days of cooler weather have affected his intake. My concern is that during the evening is when he usually drinks at least 8 to 10 gallons of water. Lately he’s been drinking two or 3 gallons during the night.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: decreased water intake and invokana

LJ Friedman
 

jesse restarted cp on 10/14,  his normal consumption of water, because of the invokana, has consistently been about 18-20 gallons,  he eats every drop of food  and remains happy.  
-- this facility doesn’t use auto waterers. , so easy to measure approximate water intake..thanks 
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Off Feed Again

Buzz
 

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 06:06 PM, Martha McSherry wrote:

Hi Marsha,
I’m puzzling about the continuing increases in APF you are giving Dame to manage her veil .  I’m not familiar with this approach.  Could you fill me in a bit on how you got there, please, so I can learn from it too?  It may not be the veil that she is experiencing but instead a need for more pergolide.  According to her Case History, it’s been a month since you last increased her pergolide – the veil should have passed by now and definitely would not be coming and going.  When do you plan to do your next ACTH test?  Your post says you increased Prascend ten days ago so I’m not sure what happened in the meantime.  

if there’s a time of day when the others are all in, I would focus on feeding her then when she‘s not as distracted.  If you increase the amount of soaked ODTBC cubes you give her, does she eat them, given plenty of time?   Posting photos would be good.  1100# does not suggest skinny 15.2 h TB to me but maybe.


My gut feeling is that increasing the amount APF will not help.  I would probably continue giving her an amount you feel comfortable giving until the rise has completely passed, you’ve retested and made any appropriate changes in pergolide dosage.  As pergolide dose increases made during the rise don’t seem to be as effective as at other times of year, as the rise disappears, it may be more likely that she will begin feeling the effects of the pergolide you are giving her and might need the APF.  However, she would have to be very sensitive indeed as that increase in pergolide effectiveness would be extremely gradual as we head into December.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

 On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 06:06 PM, Martha McSherry wrote:

Hi Marsha,
I’m puzzling about the continuing increases in APF you are giving Dame to manage her veil .  I’m not familiar with this approach.  Could you fill me in a bit on how you got there, please, so I can learn from it too?  It may not be the veil that she is experiencing but instead a need for more pergolide.  According to her Case History, it’s been a month since you last increased her pergolide – the veil should have passed by now and definitely would not be coming and going.  When do you plan to do your next ACTH test?  Your post says you increased Prascend ten days ago so I’m not sure what happened in the meantime.  

if there’s a time of day when the others are all in, I would focus on feeding her then when she‘s not as distracted.  If you increase the amount of soaked ODTBC cubes you give her, does she eat them, given plenty of time?   Posting photos would be good.  1100# does not suggest skinny 15.2 h TB to me but maybe.


My gut feeling is that increasing the amount APF will not help.  I would probably continue giving her an amount you feel comfortable giving until the rise has completely passed, you’ve retested and made any appropriate changes in pergolide dosage.  As pergolide dose increases made during the rise don’t seem to be as effective as at other times of year, as the rise disappears, it may be more likely that she will begin feeling the effects of the pergolide you are giving her and might need the APF.  However, she would have to be very sensitive indeed as that increase in pergolide effectiveness would be extremely gradual as we head into December.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

 Hi Martha! Yes, I have gradually titrated up on her APF pro, but only as I increased her dose of pergolide. Initially I did 4 days of just APF before retrying her on prascend. That may be what is confusing and I may need to adjust my CH. Im not very good navigating the site yet, but still working on it! What happebed was I tried  the prascend first, no APF,  that did not work! So, I had to take her off the prascend and started all over again Using APF.  I spoke with Dr Van Noy at Abbott and he said you can either titrate up or start at 10 ml and go down. Either way was safe to do. I have also given the APF mid day and then the prascend at evening feeding.
--
My vet wants to test again in Jan. Which I wondered about as that's awhie off and I dont like having to wonder if her dose is helping or not. 

She takes at least 2 hrs to eat a feeding, ususlly a bit longer. I do soak it all.  She has a mini friend in the barn with her, but the others are out and I dont own them. So I feed at 8:30 - 9 am and try to let her out for an hr or so before it's time to feed mid day. Then try to get her back out  for a couple hrs before evening meal. She eats dome grass, but quids a lott to. The only hay I have found that she likes and can eat some is Teff. So, it's important for her to do the 3 meals to try to keep wt on her,  but she has an old track fetlock injury and will stock up if she is in a stall all day.  It is  huge balancing act with her care. And yes, Martha she is super sensitive. Always had been. I hope Ive answered your questions and clarified our situation. Thank you so much Martha! Any further ideas, I am totally open! 

Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Re: decreased water intake and invokana

Sherry Morse
 

LJ,

How many days has he been back on Pergolide?  Has there been a change in weather? 10 gallons is more of a normal amount for a horse than 20 gallons so that's just something to keep in mind.



Re: Off Feed Again

Buzz
 

Thank you  Nancy for offering your suggestions. I did do exactly as you said, by giving her the APF mid day and then  prascend with her evening feeding. It was working well til this week, then she  became uninterested in her mid day feeding.
I also was thinking of going up and then titrating downward after a few days. Good luck with your gelding. Glad to hear you have your mare doing well! It is such a balance with each one being different! Thank you!!
--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy


Re: decreased water intake and invokana

LJ Friedman
 

Thanks for the reply. I wasn’t able to catch a sample today but I caught a sample yesterday though it was at the very very end so not optimal. The specific gravity was between 1015 and 1020. The glucose was at the usual higher end of the scale  .  will try tomorrow too?  thoughts? thanks 
He is drinking but less. I would say his drinking has dropped by 50% and he might be drinking 10 gallons where he’s not normally drinking 20 a day
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Initial Markup Request Please!

Philippa
 

Hi Lavinia 

Thank you for your reply.

LF apex is 13mm, both rear sides 13mm
LR apex 10mm. Both rear sides 13mm
RR apex 13mm & both rear sides 15mm

I was unable to measure his RF today as he has an abscess in there. I increased his j-herb dosage yesterday- so it seems to be doing it’s thing! I will get those measurements tomorrow. The LF measurements at the back of the frog may not be quite accurate as it is really difficult to get anything in beside his frogs. If anything- they may be a little deeper? 


Thanks for your help. 


Philippa. 
--
Philippa New Zealand 2020
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Philippa%20&%20Abraham  ;
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253721 ;


Re: Insulin Testing - Important Update

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 Honestly, I'm not sure if it matters but if you can get a name I can check a lot easier.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: decreased water intake and invokana

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Catch some urine to see if his glucose is the same and if his specific gravity is up.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Changed to Chasteberry decrease pergolide effects?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

In most cases, it doesn't appear to happen - although we don't have any organized studies on it. I do know of two horses where it did decrease pergolide action. Bottom line is to be alert for the possibility.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Acorns

Frances C.
 

Hi Angie, what kind of rake do you use? I haven't found anything with tines close enough to do the job. Im guessing you have lots of leaves and twigs too. We have a band of wild turkeys but they prefer my neighbors wild cat/bird food. I manage to pick up by hand about a gallon a day, all from one magnificent tree. The soil in the pen has turned to dust so blowing is not an option. I manage to water down about half the area. The acorns are hard to see in the gravel/dust. Going on with my song.
Oh some are brown and some are green
Some are even aubergene
Oh I cant wait for the day
When they will all go away.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Off Feed Again

 

Hi Marsha,
I’m puzzling about the continuing increases in APF you are giving Dame to manage her veil .  I’m not familiar with this approach.  Could you fill me in a bit on how you got there, please, so I can learn from it too?  It may not be the veil that she is experiencing but instead a need for more pergolide.  According to her Case History, it’s been a month since you last increased her pergolide – the veil should have passed by now and definitely would not be coming and going.  When do you plan to do your next ACTH test?  Your post says you increased Prascend ten days ago so I’m not sure what happened in the meantime.  

if there’s a time of day when the others are all in, I would focus on feeding her then when she‘s not as distracted.  If you increase the amount of soaked ODTBC cubes you give her, does she eat them, given plenty of time?   Posting photos would be good.  1100# does not suggest skinny 15.2 h TB to me but maybe.


My gut feeling is that increasing the amount APF will not help.  I would probably continue giving her an amount you feel comfortable giving until the rise has completely passed, you’ve retested and made any appropriate changes in pergolide dosage.  As pergolide dose increases made during the rise don’t seem to be as effective as at other times of year, as the rise disappears, it may be more likely that she will begin feeling the effects of the pergolide you are giving her and might need the APF.  However, she would have to be very sensitive indeed as that increase in pergolide effectiveness would be extremely gradual as we head into December.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Changed to Chasteberry decrease pergolide effects?

Joy V
 

"I would stop the Chastetree berry because there is always the potential for it to decrease pergolide effects."



Dr. Kellon, is this only a possibility or is it inevitable?  I ask because I recently added chasteberry to my horse's supplements (with a lovely, positive effect) but I don't want to screw up the effects of the Prascend.  His ACTH is very well controlled with one pill at this point (tested).  Thanks in advance for any info.




--
Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526

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