1. Should we test the soaked hay? How in the heck does one do that? I mean, how do we get a representative sample, soaked in the usual method, and dried before sending? Any tips?
2. Does soaking hay reduce ESC? 
3. Is there an average % of DE that is reduced by soaking hay?
4. We are soaking 10 lbs of hay in about 170 litres of cold water for 1 hour. Is that enough to make an impact? 
5. Are there any risks of soaking hay in softened water? 

Thank you again, so much for your responses Dr. Kellon. 

I'm finding myself still trying to figure out our situation - understanding our management practices and options, and the meaning of blood tests.

Curious if anyone can help me better understand, for example, the goal for a horse like our gelding who is compensated insulin, high insulin responder. Is the goal to adapt our management of him so that his blood tests indicate that he is not IR? Is that possible? I assume we want to try and get his glucose and insulin into normal ranges, is this right?

We currently have our year's supply of hay that has come back in the 9-11% range for ESC + starch as-fed (not DM) (NIR and wet chem test results in my folder). Wet chem was for only 20 bales, not representative of the year's supply. The NIR is more representative, but has a wider range for error.

The blood tests were done a week into feeding the hay un-soaked. Does this mean we really do need to be soaking it for this guy? When should we test him again to see how he is managing with it?

Thank you for any insights. Soaking hay all winter is going to be a hassle, but I've got my mind wrapped around it and am prepared to keep it up if needed. But if it's not needed, it sure is extra work and use of resources. 

--
Hilary and Amika
Prince George, BC, Canada
Joined July 2019
Amika's Case History Folder
Amika's Photos Folder

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

Martha, are you saying the pergolide is not as effective during the seasonal rise and takes longer during the rise to take effect?

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

Hi Marsha,
I’m puzzling about the continuing increases in APF you are giving Dame to manage her veil .  I’m not familiar with this approach.  Could you fill me in a bit on how you got there, please, so I can learn from it too?  It may not be the veil that she is experiencing but instead a need for more pergolide.  According to her Case History, it’s been a month since you last increased her pergolide – the veil should have passed by now and definitely would not be coming and going.  When do you plan to do your next ACTH test?  Your post says you increased Prascend ten days ago so I’m not sure what happened in the meantime.  

if there’s a time of day when the others are all in, I would focus on feeding her then when she‘s not as distracted.  If you increase the amount of soaked ODTBC cubes you give her, does she eat them, given plenty of time?   Posting photos would be good.  1100# does not suggest skinny 15.2 h TB to me but maybe.

My gut feeling is that increasing the amount APF will not help.  I would probably continue giving her an amount you feel comfortable giving until the rise has completely passed, you’ve retested and made any appropriate changes in pergolide dosage.  As pergolide dose increases made during the rise don’t seem to be as effective as at other times of year, as the rise disappears, it may be more likely that she will begin feeling the effects of the pergolide you are giving her and might need the APF.  However, she would have to be very sensitive indeed as that increase in pergolide effectiveness would be extremely gradual as we head into December.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response

July 2012 

 

Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo

 

 

Hi Marsha,
I’m puzzling about the continuing increases in APF you are giving Dame to manage her veil .  I’m not familiar with this approach.  Could you fill me in a bit on how you got there, please, so I can learn from it too?  It may not be the veil that she is experiencing but instead a need for more pergolide.  According to her Case History, it’s been a month since you last increased her pergolide – the veil should have passed by now and definitely would not be coming and going.  When do you plan to do your next ACTH test?  Your post says you increased Prascend ten days ago so I’m not sure what happened in the meantime.  

if there’s a time of day when the others are all in, I would focus on feeding her then when she‘s not as distracted.  If you increase the amount of soaked ODTBC cubes you give her, does she eat them, given plenty of time?   Posting photos would be good.  1100# does not suggest skinny 15.2 h TB to me but maybe.

My gut feeling is that increasing the amount APF will not help.  I would probably continue giving her an amount you feel comfortable giving until the rise has completely passed, you’ve retested and made any appropriate changes in pergolide dosage.  As pergolide dose increases made during the rise don’t seem to be as effective as at other times of year, as the rise disappears, it may be more likely that she will begin feeling the effects of the pergolide you are giving her and might need the APF.  However, she would have to be very sensitive indeed as that increase in pergolide effectiveness would be extremely gradual as we head into December.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response

July 2012 

 

Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo

 

 

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

Hi Lavinia 

Thank you for your reply.

LF apex is 13mm, both rear sides 13mm
LR apex 10mm. Both rear sides 13mm
RR apex 13mm & both rear sides 15mm

I was unable to measure his RF today as he has an abscess in there. I increased his j-herb dosage yesterday- so it seems to be doing it’s thing! I will get those measurements tomorrow. The LF measurements at the back of the frog may not be quite accurate as it is really difficult to get anything in beside his frogs. If anything- they may be a little deeper? 

Thanks for your help. 

Philippa. 
--
Philippa New Zealand 2020
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Philippa%20&%20Abraham  ;
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253721 ;

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Hi Marsha,
I’m puzzling about the continuing increases in APF you are giving Dame to manage her veil .  I’m not familiar with this approach.  Could you fill me in a bit on how you got there, please, so I can learn from it too?  It may not be the veil that she is experiencing but instead a need for more pergolide.  According to her Case History, it’s been a month since you last increased her pergolide – the veil should have passed by now and definitely would not be coming and going.  When do you plan to do your next ACTH test?  Your post says you increased Prascend ten days ago so I’m not sure what happened in the meantime.  

if there’s a time of day when the others are all in, I would focus on feeding her then when she‘s not as distracted.  If you increase the amount of soaked ODTBC cubes you give her, does she eat them, given plenty of time?   Posting photos would be good.  1100# does not suggest skinny 15.2 h TB to me but maybe.

My gut feeling is that increasing the amount APF will not help.  I would probably continue giving her an amount you feel comfortable giving until the rise has completely passed, you’ve retested and made any appropriate changes in pergolide dosage.  As pergolide dose increases made during the rise don’t seem to be as effective as at other times of year, as the rise disappears, it may be more likely that she will begin feeling the effects of the pergolide you are giving her and might need the APF.  However, she would have to be very sensitive indeed as that increase in pergolide effectiveness would be extremely gradual as we head into December.

--