Date   

Selenium Supplementation?

lindsaykrauland@...
 

How does one decide whether to supplement with selenium?  

The maps I see online indicate that Texas is not Se deficient, and my hay was grown in Medina County, TX.   According to the USGS, this county has an average soil selenium level of 0.346 ppm (range 0.122-0.785, std dev 0.081), and the soils tend to be quite alkaline.  Given this info, I don’t believe I should need to supplement, but Se is a recommended inclusion on my balancing recommendations.  The hay was not tested for Se.

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Updated Case History - New Hay Analysis

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Sherry, there is a number for Ethanol Soluble CHO (6.89%) in the analysis....I assumed that is the ESC.  There is a number for Water Soluble CHO, too, so it makes sense.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: 2 months after initial laminitis episode

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I'd like to second that -- you are doing a great job, especially considering she is not your own!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Updated Case History - New Hay Analysis

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Anne
Just a teeny bit of housekeeping for you--you've got your case history folder organised beautifully, but it will make it possible for readers to access it with one click of the mouse (or tap of the finger) if you can make it a 'live' link in your signature. 
To do that, you can visit your 'Subscription' page (below the 'Home' button in the left-hand menu), scroll down your subscription information until you get to the signature box. At the end of your signature, add a space or hit enter. Then scroll right to the bottom and hit 'save'. This should make your case history folder link turn blue=live. 

Thank you!
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Very wet diarrhea any suggestions

Candice Piraino
 

Any chance he may have ulcers?
--

Candice 

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @ www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: 2 months after initial laminitis episode

Candice Piraino
 

HI Phyllis!

Great news on the mare! Yes keep her booted, especially if she moves more in them and seems more comfortable with them on. More movement the better,a s it aids in the healing process to try to grow out a new hoof capsule with new laminae to hold the foot together (as long as all the triggers for laminitis have been removed). Also, side note for you with boots. Make sure to remove the boots at least once a day for a minimum of an hour to allow the boots to dry out and the feet. You can try to add corn starch inside the boots as well. Be sure to treat the feet for thrush to try to prevent any thrush from occurring if there isn't any to begin with. Many horses have thrush start when their feet are in a tightly closed boot and cut off from air circulation. You can try a mixture of 8 oz 40% zinc (Destine baby diaper rash maximum protection) with 2 teaspoons of copper sulphate powder. Wear gloves when handling because it does get everywhere! You can purchase the copper sulphate from Amazon very easily for around $5.00 USD. I would stay away from anything with gentian violet in it, since it is banned in other countries and linked to causing cancer. 

Keep up the great work taking care of that mare!
--

Candice 

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @ www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: 2 months after initial laminitis episode

W.phyllis60@...
 

I started putting her out in the sand arena again yesterday. The arena is soft sand and is 36x48 so not large. I also put her back in the boots. Today she ran around quite a bit. She does this when she can’t see my horse outside. She is quiet as long as he is visible. I will be anxious to see how she is tomorrow. She lays down at night but is up all day and has never exhibited the laminitis stance. I am anxious for the markups as I do think this is the key for her right now. The farrier comes back on the 23rd so I’m hoping to have them by then. I will keep her in the boots until then.
Thanks everyone!
--
Phyllis W in OH 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Phyllis%20and%20Patches
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255382&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Updated Case History - New Hay Analysis

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Anne,

Without knowing what bit of the NSC is sugar vs. fructans I'd be inclined to soak this hay and follow up this test with the Trainer 603 from Equianalytical to get the complete information on sugar and starch unless you can get that information from the company that ran this test.




Re: Metformin and Magnesium

Carla Anderson Peters
 

Dr. Kellon,
Thank you!
Carla 

--
Carla

 

December 2013, WI

Cupcake and Gunnar's Case Histories 

Cupcake's Photos

Gunnar's Photos 

Ω



Re: Glucosamine

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Chrissi,

While waiting for Dr. Kellon, you can have a read in this File for some info on why caution is recommended with glucosamine and IR horses:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/filessearch?q=glucosamine

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: trainer 603 vs 604

gypsylassie
 

The last time I did a 603 test,  nitrate was an add on.  
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL


Re: trainer 603 vs 604

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

You need to specifically add nitrates to any of the package tests Equi-Analytical offers.

The #604 adds lignin, fat, ash, cobalt, sulfur and chloride to the #603 items.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Glucosamine

Candice Piraino
 

Hello Chrissi!

Dr. Kellon will be getting to your message shortly! Would you be able to complete your case histories for your two horses please?

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

--

Candice 

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @ www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


trainer 603 vs 604

LJ Friedman
 

I know we use the 603 test. I see the 604 has some additional information. Is it ever useful to use the 604? The site says to use it for challenging horses etc.  Assuming the 603 has enough information to determine nitrates?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Glucosamine

cd@...
 

Hi, this is Chrissi Urban from Germany. My husband Detlev and I run a school for Natural Hoofcare and habe 13 horses in our barn, 2 of them IR but making good progress thanks to this magnificient online course. Just wanted to know, Dr. Kellon, why glucosamine is contraindicated?
--
Chrissi Urban in Southern Germany 2020


Re: nitro glycerine patch laminitis

Frances C.
 

I'm sure many of us have a  supply of RX prescription for nitroglycerin which fortunately is never used.  In the case of an emergency when you can't get vet. help would it help to administer ( 0.4 mg. tab every 5 mins. up to 3 doses for human use) or to continue to administer orally until digital pulse calmed down?  I know - against the law- Curious Frances
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: 2 months after initial laminitis episode

Cheryl Oickle
 

Mine was down with the pain of the abcess that blew out the coronary band 4 months after her founder for 5 days!  I did find during her acute laminitis prior to this she laid down much more and when up had the founder stance and at times walked so slowly like she was walking on nails...heartbreaking any how you see it

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Updated Case History - New Hay Analysis

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Anne,

When you get your insulin/glucose back it will be very interesting to see what it is on that hay, which I assume you are feeding unsoaked(?).  The starch is quite high and unfortunately starch has a 2x greater effect on insulin than ESC.  So you may need to soak to reduce the ESC as much as possible in order to minimize the effect of the high starch, which does not soak out unfortunately.  But if her bloodwork comes back as Compensated IR then I would not think soaking is necessary as long as she is asymptomatic and her ACTH is controlled.

Sounds like you have a good plan.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Updated Case History - New Hay Analysis

anneefrancis@...
 

Hi there,

I just got the results for my hay.  I panicked when I first read the NSC # but then remembered that we look at ESC + Starch.   I have my current feed ration in my Case history file.  I'm waiting on Insulin/Glucose and Vit E test results.  Tricana was recently diagnosed with PPID, I've started her on .25 of Prascend, will increase to .5 this week then to 1 pill and will retest in December.   Aside from being a little buxom and cresty, she has no symptoms.    I'm planning on deep diving into balancing her feed but in the meantime is there anything glaring that I should be addressing?  She's also on Jiaogulan and AAKG to address her DSLD, which appears to be stable (knock on wood.)  

Best,

Anne

Anne & Tricana
May 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anne%20and%20Tricana


Re: 2 months after initial laminitis episode

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

At one extreme, there's a level of pain that will drop any horse (or human). Beyond that, we have no way of  comparing the pain one horse experiences to another, especially as manifested in their behavior. It's not that simple. For example, the horse is a prey animal whose instinct is to run. Being down is a very vulnerable position. Depending on the individual's personality, they may chose to avoid that as long as possible while another may give in to it. They can't talk so we can't tell what they're thinking.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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