Date   

Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

lindsaykrauland@...
 

Thank you, Lorna & Martha.

I am taking the foot suggestions to heart.  I’ll share everything said here with my trimmer, and I think I’ll also crowd source some additional opinions on a hoof rehab site I’m on, just for good measure.

Still, although there may well be room for improvement in Audi’s trim, I don’t think they appear shockingly bad, and they’ve come A LONG way from when we purchased him.  I just don’t feel like the current state of his feet should be making him feel so poorly that he’s unable to gain weight, is intermittently lame, so uncomfortable that he doesn’t want to walk, etc.  At the very least, considering that his feet ARE far better than they had been, shouldn’t he have had some improvements in proportion to the improvement in his feet, if the feet were significantly contributing to his woes?  

I don’t doubt he’s painful in his lower body, but I wonder whether it’s all hoof related or perhaps more attributable to arthritis?  When we purchased him, he was on daily Previcox for arthritis in his hocks.  He’s been off that since Feb, and at that same time, we were making so many other changes to his management that I can’t say what effect stopping the NSAID might have had.  Also, I don’t know how the hock arthritis was diagnosed; I don’t have any vet records related to that, and he was clearly suffering from long-term sub clinical laminitis, so I don’t know whether any pain his previous owners noted would have been caused by the arthritis or the laminitis.  He does have some ringbone that showed up in his hoof radiographs in June.  I have him on 3 gm Mov-Ease as a joint supplement (had been 6 gm/day for months, but I didn’t notice a difference with the higher dose), plus 1 tbsp jiaogulan.  Should I consider switching to some other supplement(s) for potential joint pain?

And Martha, thanks for sharing your experience with your horses.  Have you personally witnessed any of your horses continuing to be very symptomatic with relatively normal blood labs?

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: testing pellets

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

According to Aurelio in past conversations, the regular timothy pellets can be too high in sugar/starch. The hay used in ODTB is different.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Hay analysis

Tucker
 

Dr. kellon, I think I have read somewhere that beet pulp is high in iron so should I discontinue using it?  Thanks!

--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Re: Hay analysis

Tucker
 

Tamara, could you tell me how you rinse it? In or out of nets? I am thinking about getting some kind of grille to set it on (without nets) to spray water through it.  
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Re: vit e,

LJ Friedman
 

in usa, the cost of 1- 400 iu capsule in oil can be .025 cents   i use 8 per day   . cost  .20 cents us.  many use 5 capsules per day   cost .13 cents per day
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: vit e,

LJ Friedman
 

This is a perfect example of how we often get incorrect information from suppliers. When we bring our comments to the group ,we get the actual way it works in real life.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

 

Lindsay, a number of us mentioned his feet in this thread so I would take to heart Lorna’s suggestion on that issue.  My experience with caring for my own collection of PPID horses is that they’ve all been different in terms of how the PPID symptoms respond to pergolide.  I spent a lot of brain power trying to make correlations and my frustration seemed to be the primary result.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: New to all of this.

 

Hi Kandace,
As Kirsten said, be careful of over feeding ‘K’ as she is not thin.  Also, I would consider a sway back, as you mentioned for ‘J’, to be an indication of PPID.  It sounds like you are developing a good understanding of what we’re about and decreasing their ACTH levels with pergolide will most likely help a lot.  Remember that PPID is a progressive disease and they may each need more than one Prascend tablet.  We recommend retesting three weeks after starting pergolide, but not sooner.
You may need to ask about MgOx at the feed store as they may have to special order.  50# is not a particularly large bag as it’s pretty dense stuff.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Karo Test

Caroline
 

So, good news then, thank you. 
--
Caroline
Spalding, Lincolnshire, UK
September 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Caroline%20and%20Evan
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=231916


Re: New to all of this.

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Kandace,

I believe Feed Store to your Door in Edmonton sells the Ontario Dehy cubes, and as the name implies they deliver/ship.  You might be close enough to pick up a few bags yourself though.  They are great for older horses that quid because once soaked they turn into a soft mash that doesn't need much chewing and is already mineral balanced.

Your hays are all within our typical safe range, so I'm surprised K is laminitic.  Her high ACTH may be driving the insulin up, but was she also on pasture or grain when she was tested?  Fat pads over the eyes are a classic sign of high insulin, which your bloodwork confirmed.  When these go away and her crest gets smaller and softer you'll know you are getting her EMS under control.  Her BCS is very common with EMS as these horses have trouble self-regulating their food.  I suspect once her PPID is controlled you'll find she needs strict dietary management to keep her insulin down, too.   It's hard to develop an eye for good body weight when we are so used to seeing chubby horses as normal all around us, but with an EMS horse you want to aim for a BCS of 4.5 where ribs are just barely visible.

I would be very careful about not over feeding K, especially if the horses have good shelter from the wind.  Does she grow a thick winter coat, too?  That helps, but if not you could blanket her and use fleece-lined shipping boots on her legs.  To lose weight, she should be fed 2% of her ideal body weight, or 1.5% of her current body weight--whichever is higher.  On the extra cold nights (below -10 to -15 C is my cut-off, but we have high humidity here so that's bone-chilling cold) you could try going up to 2% of her current weight and see how she does with that.  Thyro-L will jumpstart the weight loss but eventually her thyroid will compensate for the added hormones by reducing how much it produces, at which point the weight loss will stall and she will need to be weaned off the Thyro-L slowly so her thyroid has time to increase hormone production again.

Hopefully you get your Case Histories loaded.  Although everything feels urgent right now, bringing our horses back to health can be a long process so don't burn out early, just tackle what you can manage now.  You've made good progress so far.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Lindsay,

If Audi were here I would be, considering everything else that has been done, focus on his trim. I'm by no means an expert, but I would like to see if a tighter trim would make him more comfortable. He doesn't have to be obviously  'unsound' ( I know you know this) to be hurting. This could show up in his on again/off again behaviour.
You said, "Walks are hit or miss. Sometimes he goes out well and sometimes (yesterday), he just plants his feet and refuses to move on."
And it maybe could even account to some extent,for his weight issues....low grade pain interfering here?
Just brainstorming. I know how frustrating this can be.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: od balance cubes

Cheri Tillman-Anderson
 

Just to add this note re finding OD Timothy Balance cubes.  I contacted OD regarding distributors in the southwestern U.S. and received a prompt reply.  They suggested I try Triple Crown Naturals brand timothy balance cubes.  It is TC packaging but made by OD.  
--
Cheri
May 2020 New Mexico
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheri%20and%20Chama


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

lindsaykrauland@...
 

Thanks again! 

I suppose I was just looking for some general trends along the lines of whether it's typical or very rare for a PPID horse to struggle when his ACTH is as close to "good" as Audi's seems to be. If it's very unlikely this is all PPID, then I can justify the trouble and expense of running down other causes. On the other hand, I know I have heard from other members here that their horses really needed ACTH levels to be controlled lower than Audi's currently are, but I don't recall specifics of how minor or severe those horses' PPID signs were when the ACTH was only modestly elevated. If other horses have looked like Audi but improved when their ACTH levels came down into the 20s or so, then I feel more comfortable sitting tight and just giving Audi more time.

Audi was in to the vet on Wednesday this week. Temp normal, heart sounds good (in fact, the vet couldn't appreciate Audi's mild heart murmur, which had been present in two previous appointments), clean fecal. Manure output is normal. EPM was the only other thing that came to mind for the vet, given Audi's muscle atrophy and his habit of occasionally dragging his back feet. EPM test is pending. Audi eats well, and I've been separating him from his buddy for almost every meal so that I can monitor Audi's intake. He does eat very slowly. A 5 lb meal can take 3+ hours. Walks are hit or miss. Sometimes he goes out well and sometimes (yesterday), he just plants his feet and refuses to move on. He seems to enjoy all grooming. He has a scheduled 6mo dental appointment next week.

I am trying hard to consider all possibilities, and to be honest it's really exhausting my resources. And it's maddeningly frustrating because I'm not seeing any big improvements yet, and I'm going on a year of trying to turn this horse around. It constantly feels like I'm missing that final piece of the puzzle or something.

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Hay analysis

Tucker
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon and Tamara - good advice. 
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The insulin is normal even if he hadn't eaten for a while.

 I can't really put any odds of whether his behavior is PPID/pergolide related or not but it's always a good idea with these horses to remember there can be many things going on which are unrelated. Take his temp and pulse, monitor food and water intake, manure production. See how he responds to grooming or going for a walk. Get your vet out if concerned.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Hay analysis

Tamara Gonsor
 

My last batch of hay came back super high (toxic) in iron levels as well. Dr Kellon suggested rinsing it and sending in new sample, it came down 251 points. Since I rinse daily, I just wanted to add that rinsing off dirt does indeed work and makes a huge difference. I do take small flakes at a time. So much dirt in the water and at the bottom of the bucket. 
It blows my mind how dirty the hay was that my horse was eating.   

--
Tamara G. in Arizona 2020
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tamara%20and%20Malik
Malik Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252564


Re: testing pellets

 

LJ,
Dr. Kellon's nutrition courses are Buy One Get One Free, RIGHT NOW!
Sign up for one.  The best money you will ever spend. 

 
 


 
 
 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Re: uckele custom supplements and free bslancing??

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

U - kel - ee
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Hay analysis

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I would shake the hay well before you feed it and retest the shaken hay for iron then balance from there.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: vit e,

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Linda,

That's only likely true if you feed nothing but the flax with the E.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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