Date   

The Veil prevails... !?

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hey all,  

I am still struggling a little with Vinnie and the veil. He is on apf pro still 10 ml 1 time per day. He has been on his full dose of prascend 0.5 now for at least two weeks and he is still not eating his night time mash as normal. He is also not eating the normal stuff i used to out in the mash like cbd joint pellets or spirulina or the vite.e oil or the HA gel..  The am mash he is about 90% consistenly eating it. But I am leaving some stuff out of the mash and feeding it separately. He is still eating hay as normal ..maybe eating it a bit slower than he used to,  which is actually fine with me because it lasts him longer through out the day.

What am I doing wrong? 

Summer also took almost a month on her normal dose of prascend and is also still not eating things she would normally eat in her mash and when I tried to titrate down Apf she went a little off again so I put her back in 6 mls of APF pro 1 time per day.

Summer also started estradiol and that ironically seemed to help her appetite a little bit and it seemed to bring back her more jolly old personality. I tried to stop estradiol too since we are in fall, but she started acting overtly hormonal again like she was going to go back into her bad cycle  I have her on 5mg of estradiol and that seems to be working well.

I am not sure if I am doing something wrong with this veil issue or if my horses are just super sensitive?
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

lmittler@...
 

Hello,

I'm Audi's hoof trimmer. I am working on photo comparison collages for Lindsay to post but in the meantime, I'd like to mention that Audi was extremely sore the morning after his trim on Tuesday. I don't agree with taking his toes back anymore at this time, which she and I have discussed, at least until someone gives us a good reason to risk making him even more sore. This was the first time he was sore after my trim and I have no doubt it's because I took his toes back too far this time. He was sound before the trim. He still has a sole ridge to protect his flat soles so taking more toe (and therefore, sole ridge) will put him further down on his thin soles. I'd also like to point out that you're looking at a 2D picture of a 3D form so dimensions are lost in translation. His walls are rolled off the ground, similar to but not as aggressive as a founder trim, and his breakover is further back than the end of the toe you see. Audi has been very uncomfortable during the last five trims so I do what I can while Lindsay convinces him to stand on three legs for as long as he can. I am not being defensive or argumentative about your suggestions thus far, I just wanted to add these important pieces of info so we can continue to work together to help Audi.

Lindsay is an amazing owner, the kind of owner trimmers wish they had in droves! She deserves a huge pat on the back for her efforts!! And thank you all for the information you've shared thus far. We're determined to get Audi feeling 100% and your efforts are helping us get him there.
--
Lisa Mittler
Barefoot Hoof Practitioner
South and Central Texas
January 2019


Vit e (again)

Bonnie Eddy
 

My newly diagnosed PPID (and started on Prascend), 20 year old gelding has stopped eating his Arizona copper complete that he's picked at for the past year. Thinking of trying the Mad Barn Amino Trace. I'd had Horse Tech remove the synthetic vit e and have been adding the capsules. My question, should I continue adding the capsules  or would the A.T. be sufficient as is? It's been said that the e had oil prior to being pelletized. 
I'm also considering the Uckele Foundation (cost difference consideration). So same question would apply. 

Working on 2 case histories.

Thank you as always,
--
Bonnie with Racham (over the rainbow) from Southern California, Nov/2016

Case History
Racham's Photos 
Ω 

 


Re: Hay analysis

Tucker
 

Tamara, thanks! I have a giant plastic trunk and have made a wire grille out of no climb wire fence that dips down into the tub where I can pile my hay to rinse. The bottom of the tub has holes so it can drain over a french drain. I will shake the hay out first, then rinse. I think it would be easier to rinse whole small flakes but the dirt clumps hide in the flakes.  I feel much better about feeding the rinsed hay to Indigo.    
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Re: Hay analysis

Tucker
 

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 10:05 AM, <Firstqualityhay@...> wrote:
I don’t know if I should be commenting on this thread...

Many haymakers to maximize yield cut very close to the ground and in doing so, leave a short stubble.  That low cut in dry conditions and with a disc mower or disc mower conditioner can kick up a goodly amount of dirt and dust.  This situation is aggravated when, to get the hay picked up, they have to lower their tedder, rake and baler pickup tines, sometimes touching or even digging a bit in the ground.  I should think in the red clay of NC, that dirt and dust contains a lot of iron.  We cut out hay at 4 inches minimum to eliminate that dirt/dust potential as much as possible and give our grass a better chance to recover.  You might ask your hay supplier how close to the ground they cut prior to buying.

Hope this helps and good luck!
--
Bill J. in VA 2020
FirstQualityHay.com
Hi Bill, thank you for your reply, it makes so much sense! The hay I purchased was from a dealer and I believe the hay came from a northern state. I wanted Orchard grass and that's hard to find here. Do you sell and deliver hay to NC?
 
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Re: vit e,

Starshine Ranch
 

Oh wow!  Thank you again, Dr. Kellon... I've always been suspicious of the synthetic E and now it makes sense.
--
Linda  CA  in 2020


Re: uckele custom supplements and free bslancing??

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Just to clarify here because there was a question - LJ was incorrect, not Martha!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Review of rads #photo-notice and metabolic panel question #photo-notice

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Laura,

It's the ESC+starch that you want to look at, which is going to be below WSC anyway.

Thanks for adding all the the rads.

To add to Dr. Kellon's comments, Ero's trim definitely needs to be addressed.

In the PPE rads, the toes were too long, sole depth was thin, HPA was broken back slightly. In the most recent rads, most of these issue are still present and have worsened.

Both feet have toes that are much too long, which is placing the breakover further ahead of where it should be and is likely the actual reason that you are seeing what is being described as WLD. The broken back HPAs have worsened, putting even more strain on the DDFT and navicular areas. RF is worse than the LF. Sole depth has improved since 2018 but at the cost of the HPA. Heels are more underrun than they were in the PPE.There is mild sidebone present, which points to long-term medio-lateral imbalances. Flaring is present in the walls. I can't see the heels to comment on them being contracted but the frogs are elongated and narrower than they should be (and are being over trimmed), which usually goes along with contracted heels.

Shoes won't fix any of the problems but they might succeed in hiding them for awhile. The trim itself needs to be corrected, whether you then put shoes on or not. I don't see any reason Ero needs to remain in shoes and see plenty of reasons to remove them. Glue-on shoes can be helpful for some horses, if they are thoughtfully applied rather than just used as a substitute for metal shoes. Padded boots are the better option during the transition (if needed), as you can change the padding frequently to accommodate his changing needs. It also allows for trimming on a more frequent schedule - which these feet may require initially to be able to stay ahead of growth that can out-pace the corrections. I'd recommend experimenting with wedged pads temporarily that will unload his heels and walls while simultaneously backing the toes to get the breakover set correctly. This will allow the heels to start to drop back into place without sacrificing the critical vertical height he is currently lacking in the back half of the feet.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: New to all of this.

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I am somewhat familiar with Dr Getty.  I subscribed to the free-feeding for years and I can tell you that allowing my EMS horse access to 24/7 hay, even in slow feed nets, led to a very fat horse.  At maintenance (ie no work) I have to feed him around 1.5% of his ideal weight to keep him at a healthy weight.  I split up his feeding into 3x a day, with the bulk fed overnight in a double-netted hay net, and aim to give him hay at least every 4-6 hours, as advised by ECIR.  He just cannot self-regulate and that is probably due to his EMS (high leptin), and possibly related to not getting enough forage when he was younger.

I'm glad K is feeling better!  Exercise is good but allowing her to determine how much herself is safest.  If she walks next to you on lead willingly then hand-walking is probably fine.  If she is hesitant or unwilling then don't force her.  Ridden work should wait until she has grown a new hoof capsule, 6-9 months, with no more laminitis/founder in that time.

I would wait and retest after 3-4 weeks on the full dose.  ACTH will also be decreasing naturally at this time of year, so retesting in December-January when it is naturally low will give you an accurate picture of how well controlled the PPID is at 1 Prascend.  Next summer, after it starts to climb in July, you would ideally test again to make sure the Prascend is still keeping it within the normal limits in preparation for the seasonal rise.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Lindsay,

I think we've implied that radiographs are needed, but you actually don't need radiographs to improve the trim.  You just need a good rasp.  I think you should start now rather than wait.  Dr Kellon has already given you your starting point: file the toe back on the right to remove the crack.  Then file the same amount from the toe on the left so both fronts look the same lengthwise.  Dragging toes can also mean the toes are just too long, so try shortening them a bit on his hinds, too.  After the toes are shorter, the sidewall flares can be reduced similarly so that the hoof appears rounded again from the sole view.  Lavinia could provide you with much more detailed advice if you retake your photos to spec, and request markups.  But she is busy and it might take a while, whereas you can start now with a file while you wait.

Not saying that trim is the cause of his weight issues, but certainly it is important in how he moves, how his feet feel, and how eager he is for any exercise.  It is soooo important to how he feels and it's so easy to start making positive changes there for little to no cost (a 40$ rasp and some gloves).

I'm glad to hear Dr Kellon's assessment that Audi is looking better.  He is a tough case but it sounds like you are making progress.  He's lucky to have such a dedicated new owner.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Review of rads #photo-notice and metabolic panel question #photo-notice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The major finding on the films is a broken back axis which strains the DDFT and navicular area. No evidence of laminitis. Soaking hay won't fix this.

The only components of the metabolic work up that should be drawn at the same time are insulin and glucose.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New to all of this.

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

" Wow, more amazing and confusing information to digest, Kirsten.  Are you familiar with Dr. Juliet Getty, Equine Nutritionist?  Almost exactly the same information, except not to ever have a horse without forage.  Causes stress mentally as well as stressing body into thinking it is in starvation so save the bad fats, instead of burning them." 

There is no evidence whatsoever to support her claims.

https://wp.me/p2WBdh-VH

https://wp.me/p2WBdh-kr

https://wp.me/p2WBdh-a8

https://wp.me/p2WBdh-ys
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New to all of this.

Kandace Krause
 

Wow, more amazing and confusing information to digest, Kirsten.  Are you familiar with Dr. Juliet Getty, Equine Nutritionist?  Almost exactly the same information, except not to ever have a horse without forage.  Causes stress mentally as well as stressing body into thinking it is in starvation so save the bad fats, instead of burning them. 

We will be -20* tonight and tomorrow, possible with snow, but it will be dry cold/snow.  Blanketed.

I am happy to report that "K" walked about a quarter of a kilometre down the mountain yesterday, so now closer to water and horse trailer and a somewhat flatter place to stand about in a paddock.  She is still walking as well (not totally pain free, but she stepped out smartly) and as exercise is good for IR as well, at what point could I start hand walking her and for how long?  I will also pose this question to my vet, but his information is less from experience and maybe not as current as this sites.  Like he doesn't want her to have any BP at all.

We are coming to 14 days since starting the pergolide in a slightly speeded up introduction, should re test be three weeks from full dosage or from 1/4 tablet?

--
Kandace K Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2020


Review of rads #photo-notice and metabolic panel question #photo-notice

Laura and Ero
 

Per suggestion from this group, I've taken rads of Ero's front feet and scheduled a metabolic panel. New feed arrived and his new diet starts today! He has been on soaked hay for two weeks (although testing results indicate WSC + starch is 9.63). Still feel better soaking until I get his blood results back.  

1) New rads (4) are in his album, along with PPE rads (from 2 years ago when not in work), and hoof photos from his last trim/re-set two weeks ago. I'm looking for perspective/consult on these rads. Vet agreed he was under-run and had contracted heels (also dealing with WLD) and I'm treating thrush on my own with Pete's Goo. What concerns me is that the vet and current farrier have stated "this was my horse and that to continue staying comfortable in his dressage work, he must be kept in metal shoes, possibly add a wedged heel to the shoe". I just keep thinking there has to be other options. I'm also a little concerned with what I think is the start of sidebone, but she wasn't concerned (as long as he's kept in shoes). I'm not sure how to read these and did not receive a written summary from the vet. Note - I have reached out to a barefoot trimmer for an second consult, boots and/or easycare glue-on shoes as alt approach.  

2) I also had vet pull blood for a full metabolic panel. Being a Friday, I asked questions in advance about it being chilled and spun within two hours and then sent on ice to Cornell. She stated she'd keep frozen and send on Monday to avoid it sitting over the weekend. However, I received a follow-up notice that she didn't pull blood for serum and that she'd come back on Monday to pull for that. Question - do the blood samples need to be from the same draw (same day/setting)? I can't be there on Monday to confirm my horse won't be turned out or fasted before they pull blood. He was fasted (just had hay) for initial pull. Anything I should be concerned with here? Vet is hard to track down and not real open to my questions. She wasn't able to confidently help me with the hay analysis, but agreed I should keep soaking my hay.  

TL;DR:
1) Any issues with rads? Any reason I couldn't confidently try to remove metal shoes and stay working? (I'm hoping to get back to barefoot; open to transitioning with boots or glue-ons). 
2) Bloodwork. Two different draws, 3 days apart. Will results be accurate and reliable?

Thanks,
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album


Re: vit e,

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Laura is correct.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: uckele custom supplements and free bslancing??

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Siri is wrong.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Lindsay,

Let me try to explain a little more. The strength of the hoof and the laminar connections is partially genetic and partially nutritional. We can't do anything about the genetics except maximize nutrition and trim to support good health as much as we can. Sinking is caused by things other than laminitis. Horses can, and do, sink because of poor nutrition and poor trim, especially when in shoes https://hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm . Every horse with "flat" feet has sinking. Poor connections and flared hooves also predispose to abscesses.

We can't say if metabolic laminitis was a part of the picture in May because we don't have an insulin level from then. I can say with the poor sole clearance he had it wasn't necessarily a factor. Just moving around or playing too much could do it. Rings don't only mean laminitis. Many things cause rings - change in diet, change in exercise. metabolic events like giving birth, any inflammation or injury anywhere in the hoof can cause a ring. Only rings wider at the heel than toe are characteristic for laminitis because they indicate rotation.

As for PPID, Yes, I would call him positive. The upper ranges on tests are determined by statistics, not medical fact. They represent odds. Unexplained loss of weight/muscle is a common sign of PPID. If you compare these two pictures, there is clear improvement:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/248156/16?p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/248156/44?p=Name,,,20,1,40,0

Muscle at the withers has filled in.  Abdominal tone is better. Muscle at forearm and triceps is better.  Croup is more filled in and sacrum less prominent. More to go for sure, but better. Once you confirm ACTH is well controlled, generous calories and protein with regular deworming should bring his condition back.

All of that said, he certainly could have EPM or something else. I'm just saying it's not necessary to explain what you have seen.

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: od balance cubes

melodie miller
 

We are VERY lucky to have Balance Cubes. Thank You, Dr. K!
My horse has IR/ PPID and now EPM. I've tried everything to get him to take his meds, nothing worked more than a few days. Until the Balance Cubes. He LOVES them!!  And so does my jumper/hunter! And I feel good feeding them because I know how good they are for the horses. And so easy, soak with a little hot water and done. I also use them as snacks!



--
Melodie Miller, Earleville Maryland
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Melodie%20and%20Montserrat
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=207657


Re: vit e,

gypsylassie
 

I'm not sure if this has been answered already, but I believe the available Vit E listed on the synthetic capsules takes the difference between natural and synthetic E into account.   There have been messages over the years here stating that using the synthetic is ok.   I throw a couple extra in the feed tub as insurance, but that's just me.🙂.  I use the 400 size (with oil) and Chappie eats them in his bucket meal.   
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL


Re: Request for markups

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Thanks, Phyllis.

I'll work with what's available.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

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