Hi Sandy,

 If she doesn't have PPID or EMS this question belongs on Horsekeeping.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Hi Lisa,

I basically agree with Lavinia's comments (including the thank you!).

Let me explain a little further what I meant about that RF divot/crack. If you look at the sole surface, it lines up precisely with the tip of the frog and the heel clefts, meaning it is the center of the toe. The crack here is a dead giveaway the toe is too long. You don't have to touch the sole to bring the toe back. I can't tell for sure from the photo of the sole but it looks like the sole may be pulled forward at the toe. Don't be fooled by that. There is as much separation at the toe as at the quarters. If you rasp the toe from 10:00 to 2:00 to remove the wall in front of the crack you will not invade the sole.

Backing up the toe and taking the hoof wall completely out of weightbearing will  put him onto his soles but pads and boots will protect him. I actually suspect his discomfort is coming more from the hind foot/heel area and traces back to the condition the feet were in from the March photos. You have come a LONG way since then but his feet are still underrun, frogs contracted and while the new hoof growth looks much healthier he is still having to deal with the poor quality and flaring at ground level and approximately half way up. The only way to eliminate that and encourage better use of the structures in the hind foot is to take the walls out of weightbearing (which they are in no condition to do anyway, thus the flaring), back up the toes and pad the feet. Those structures are weak and will take some time to adapt. If you continue to allow weightbearing through the flares and weak connection, they will continue to tear

We're getting some conflicting information about his soundness. On one hand he is said to be sound until after the last trim but he was unwilling to hold his feet up to be trimmed for quite some time. Sound to me means freely moving at the walk, trot and canter on all surfaces. Is he sound?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

hi, my mare has been loseing weight and her top line is less than id like I monitor her weight and feed accordingly.  she has adlib soaked hay. thunderbrooks hay cobs. salt ,minerals,brewers yeast
and   chase berrys-- but she just tested neg for cushings. so will discontinue that.
 what can I safely feed for top line.
she wont eat cuppra feed.
many thanks 
sandy
, joined 27th January 2020. location. Cornwall-England

Not a direct answer to your vit e question but... be aware that the madbarn AT can take some getting used to for some horses. My gelding took a few weeks to really decide he was going to eat it. Not trying to discourage you from using the product,  just be aware.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Sonseeahray Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Keegan Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Keegan
Keegan XRays and Hooves Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255699&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Hi Tucker,

We’re a small farm and delivery doesn’t really pencil out for us, so I’m sorry we cannot deliver.  However we have folks come from long distances with trailers, horse trailers and some rent a UHaul van trailer for a day.  We have one customer, who turned us onto this group, that rents a very large Uhaul and we can generally pack around 250 bales into it.  They are from NC too.

I’m struggling to figure out how to create a case history folder such that I can upload our hay analysis.  I would be glad to share them if you could send me an email

Take care,
Bill J in VA

--
Bill J. in VA 2020
FirstQualityHay.com

Thanks Maxine, that makes me feel better. He has lost a little weight but I am trying to compensate with adding some more OD balance cubes or adjusting hay on the days when he is just not as interested in his mash with supplements. I am at least getting his morning supplements in him most of the time and about 50/50 night time.   It is such a strange paradigm for a horse that used to be a chow hound and would eat anything I put in front of him.  
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

Hi Nancy
My gelding was off his bucket feed almost completely for about a month after we started him on Prascend--and only 1/4 of a tablet to begin (0.25mg) then up to 0.5mg after 3 weeks. Then he was on and off picky with it for another couple of months after that--some days he'd up-end the bucket and snuffle the fallen feed, other days he'd leave some. He was eating hay and limited grass (not IR) fine. When I upped his dose to 0.75mg for the seasonal rise we went through it all again for weeks. Very annoying to waste feed. I made sure he was eating his hay, and reduced the quantity of his bucket feed, which meant that at least some days he ate most of it. Any supplements that were essential, I syringed. We don't have APF, so that wasn't an option.
If Vinnie is eating his hay and not losing weight, maybe just give him some more time?
Dangles has settled well on 0.5mg at the moment, but he does have days where he seems to feel my cooking is not up to scratch and he tips his bucket. It helps me feel less frustrated if I can dis-associate supplements from bucket feed as much as possible. 

Have you seen the Picky Eater's Checklist in the Files? There might be some useful suggestions in there for you. 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9b%20Pulling%20it%20Together/Picky%20Eaters%20Checklist.pdf


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

Commercial Feed Analysis Library

When:
Sunday, 8 November 2020

Description:

Commercial Feed Analysis Library

Over the years individual ECIR Group members have sent various commercial feeds to be tested then generously shared the information. The Commercial Feed Analysis Library is a new term for an old file folder where any member can go and view unbiased analyses of commercial feeds. These analyses are a valuable part of the science that the ECIR uses to help our IR and PPID horses and are valuable tools used to prevent laminitis. 

If you have an analysis of a commercial feed please, instead of uploading it to your own folder, please consider sharing it with the entire group by by notifying us here.

View the Commercial Feed Analysis Library 

Thanks for your help and cooperation.

- ECIR Group Owners and Support Team

Hi Lisa,

Thanks so much for joining in on this discussion regarding Audi. It's really helpful to have first hand input from his trimmer.

Sorry to hear that he has been having a tough time after his most recent trim. Some other possibilities to consider regarding the soreness is that it may be due to the changes in his mechanics that are engaging other structures that aren't used to functioning - sort of like when you start to work out and muscles you didn't even know you had start yelling at you the morning after. This can be across his entire body, not just limited to his feet and lower leg. The changes in mechanics can also cause mobilization of trapped collections of material that are now making their way out as the hoof functions differently. While this is an overall good thing, the process itself isn't always pretty. Is he currently in padded boots at all times to both help with protecting those thin, flat soles and to assist him in building stronger overall structures?

We are definitely aware of the limitations of photos vs. seeing the feet in person so ask for specific views of each hoof to help in assessing things in a more 3D perspective. Thank-you for preparing more hoof photos for Lindsay to upload - it's much appreciated. If possible, would you be able to provide the following view:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/243358/30?p=Created,,,20,2,20,0

This one would help in seeing more of what you are seeing regarding the sole ridge.

I can relate to how difficult it can be to work on a horse who is not able to hold up his feet to be worked on. Sometimes, it can be a downright dangerous situation.

Audi is lucky to have you and Lindsay as his advocates.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

Hey all,  

I am still struggling a little with Vinnie and the veil. He is on apf pro still 10 ml 1 time per day. He has been on his full dose of prascend 0.5 now for at least two weeks and he is still not eating his night time mash as normal. He is also not eating the normal stuff i used to out in the mash like cbd joint pellets or spirulina or the vite.e oil or the HA gel..  The am mash he is about 90% consistenly eating it. But I am leaving some stuff out of the mash and feeding it separately. He is still eating hay as normal ..maybe eating it a bit slower than he used to,  which is actually fine with me because it lasts him longer through out the day.

What am I doing wrong? 

Summer also took almost a month on her normal dose of prascend and is also still not eating things she would normally eat in her mash and when I tried to titrate down Apf she went a little off again so I put her back in 6 mls of APF pro 1 time per day.

Summer also started estradiol and that ironically seemed to help her appetite a little bit and it seemed to bring back her more jolly old personality. I tried to stop estradiol too since we are in fall, but she started acting overtly hormonal again like she was going to go back into her bad cycle  I have her on 5mg of estradiol and that seems to be working well.

I am not sure if I am doing something wrong with this veil issue or if my horses are just super sensitive?
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

Hello,

I'm Audi's hoof trimmer. I am working on photo comparison collages for Lindsay to post but in the meantime, I'd like to mention that Audi was extremely sore the morning after his trim on Tuesday. I don't agree with taking his toes back anymore at this time, which she and I have discussed, at least until someone gives us a good reason to risk making him even more sore. This was the first time he was sore after my trim and I have no doubt it's because I took his toes back too far this time. He was sound before the trim. He still has a sole ridge to protect his flat soles so taking more toe (and therefore, sole ridge) will put him further down on his thin soles. I'd also like to point out that you're looking at a 2D picture of a 3D form so dimensions are lost in translation. His walls are rolled off the ground, similar to but not as aggressive as a founder trim, and his breakover is further back than the end of the toe you see. Audi has been very uncomfortable during the last five trims so I do what I can while Lindsay convinces him to stand on three legs for as long as he can. I am not being defensive or argumentative about your suggestions thus far, I just wanted to add these important pieces of info so we can continue to work together to help Audi.

Lindsay is an amazing owner, the kind of owner trimmers wish they had in droves! She deserves a huge pat on the back for her efforts!! And thank you all for the information you've shared thus far. We're determined to get Audi feeling 100% and your efforts are helping us get him there.
--
Lisa Mittler
Barefoot Hoof Practitioner
South and Central Texas
January 2019

My newly diagnosed PPID (and started on Prascend), 20 year old gelding has stopped eating his Arizona copper complete that he's picked at for the past year. Thinking of trying the Mad Barn Amino Trace. I'd had Horse Tech remove the synthetic vit e and have been adding the capsules. My question, should I continue adding the capsules  or would the A.T. be sufficient as is? It's been said that the e had oil prior to being pelletized. 
I'm also considering the Uckele Foundation (cost difference consideration). So same question would apply. 

Working on 2 case histories.

Thank you as always,
--
Bonnie with Racham (over the rainbow) from Southern California, Nov/2016

Case History
Racham's Photos 
Ω 

 

Tamara, thanks! I have a giant plastic trunk and have made a wire grille out of no climb wire fence that dips down into the tub where I can pile my hay to rinse. The bottom of the tub has holes so it can drain over a french drain. I will shake the hay out first, then rinse. I think it would be easier to rinse whole small flakes but the dirt clumps hide in the flakes.  I feel much better about feeding the rinsed hay to Indigo.    
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 10:05 AM, <Firstqualityhay@...> wrote:

I don’t know if I should be commenting on this thread...

Many haymakers to maximize yield cut very close to the ground and in doing so, leave a short stubble.  That low cut in dry conditions and with a disc mower or disc mower conditioner can kick up a goodly amount of dirt and dust.  This situation is aggravated when, to get the hay picked up, they have to lower their tedder, rake and baler pickup tines, sometimes touching or even digging a bit in the ground.  I should think in the red clay of NC, that dirt and dust contains a lot of iron.  We cut out hay at 4 inches minimum to eliminate that dirt/dust potential as much as possible and give our grass a better chance to recover.  You might ask your hay supplier how close to the ground they cut prior to buying.

Hope this helps and good luck!
--
Bill J. in VA 2020
FirstQualityHay.com

Hi Bill, thank you for your reply, it makes so much sense! The hay I purchased was from a dealer and I believe the hay came from a northern state. I wanted Orchard grass and that's hard to find here. Do you sell and deliver hay to NC?
 
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 

Oh wow!  Thank you again, Dr. Kellon... I've always been suspicious of the synthetic E and now it makes sense.
--
Linda  CA  in 2020

Just to clarify here because there was a question - LJ was incorrect, not Martha!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Hi Laura,

It's the ESC+starch that you want to look at, which is going to be below WSC anyway.

Thanks for adding all the the rads.

To add to Dr. Kellon's comments, Ero's trim definitely needs to be addressed.

In the PPE rads, the toes were too long, sole depth was thin, HPA was broken back slightly. In the most recent rads, most of these issue are still present and have worsened.

Both feet have toes that are much too long, which is placing the breakover further ahead of where it should be and is likely the actual reason that you are seeing what is being described as WLD. The broken back HPAs have worsened, putting even more strain on the DDFT and navicular areas. RF is worse than the LF. Sole depth has improved since 2018 but at the cost of the HPA. Heels are more underrun than they were in the PPE.There is mild sidebone present, which points to long-term medio-lateral imbalances. Flaring is present in the walls. I can't see the heels to comment on them being contracted but the frogs are elongated and narrower than they should be (and are being over trimmed), which usually goes along with contracted heels.

Shoes won't fix any of the problems but they might succeed in hiding them for awhile. The trim itself needs to be corrected, whether you then put shoes on or not. I don't see any reason Ero needs to remain in shoes and see plenty of reasons to remove them. Glue-on shoes can be helpful for some horses, if they are thoughtfully applied rather than just used as a substitute for metal shoes. Padded boots are the better option during the transition (if needed), as you can change the padding frequently to accommodate his changing needs. It also allows for trimming on a more frequent schedule - which these feet may require initially to be able to stay ahead of growth that can out-pace the corrections. I'd recommend experimenting with wedged pads temporarily that will unload his heels and walls while simultaneously backing the toes to get the breakover set correctly. This will allow the heels to start to drop back into place without sacrificing the critical vertical height he is currently lacking in the back half of the feet.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

I am somewhat familiar with Dr Getty.  I subscribed to the free-feeding for years and I can tell you that allowing my EMS horse access to 24/7 hay, even in slow feed nets, led to a very fat horse.  At maintenance (ie no work) I have to feed him around 1.5% of his ideal weight to keep him at a healthy weight.  I split up his feeding into 3x a day, with the bulk fed overnight in a double-netted hay net, and aim to give him hay at least every 4-6 hours, as advised by ECIR.  He just cannot self-regulate and that is probably due to his EMS (high leptin), and possibly related to not getting enough forage when he was younger.

I'm glad K is feeling better!  Exercise is good but allowing her to determine how much herself is safest.  If she walks next to you on lead willingly then hand-walking is probably fine.  If she is hesitant or unwilling then don't force her.  Ridden work should wait until she has grown a new hoof capsule, 6-9 months, with no more laminitis/founder in that time.

I would wait and retest after 3-4 weeks on the full dose.  ACTH will also be decreasing naturally at this time of year, so retesting in December-January when it is naturally low will give you an accurate picture of how well controlled the PPID is at 1 Prascend.  Next summer, after it starts to climb in July, you would ideally test again to make sure the Prascend is still keeping it within the normal limits in preparation for the seasonal rise.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Hi Lindsay,

I think we've implied that radiographs are needed, but you actually don't need radiographs to improve the trim.  You just need a good rasp.  I think you should start now rather than wait.  Dr Kellon has already given you your starting point: file the toe back on the right to remove the crack.  Then file the same amount from the toe on the left so both fronts look the same lengthwise.  Dragging toes can also mean the toes are just too long, so try shortening them a bit on his hinds, too.  After the toes are shorter, the sidewall flares can be reduced similarly so that the hoof appears rounded again from the sole view.  Lavinia could provide you with much more detailed advice if you retake your photos to spec, and request markups.  But she is busy and it might take a while, whereas you can start now with a file while you wait.

Not saying that trim is the cause of his weight issues, but certainly it is important in how he moves, how his feet feel, and how eager he is for any exercise.  It is soooo important to how he feels and it's so easy to start making positive changes there for little to no cost (a 40$ rasp and some gloves).

I'm glad to hear Dr Kellon's assessment that Audi is looking better.  He is a tough case but it sounds like you are making progress.  He's lucky to have such a dedicated new owner.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

The major finding on the films is a broken back axis which strains the DDFT and navicular area. No evidence of laminitis. Soaking hay won't fix this.

The only components of the metabolic work up that should be drawn at the same time are insulin and glucose.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001