Date   

Re: 2 months after initial laminitis episode

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Phyllis,

Without any bloodwork you have no idea whether she is definitely IR or it's being controlled through her limited diet or not.  Were she mine I would not take a chance on putting her out on pasture without having her in a preferably closed muzzle.  That would include in the winter as well as the rest of the year. 



Re: Testing ACTH right out of the paddock??

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You're right, Tanna. Sticking to their routine is best.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Testing ACTH right out of the paddock??

Tanna
 

I'm no expert but I generally try to have my horse's blood pulled at a similar time of day and generally that time is shortly before or after coming in from her paddock depending on time of year. 

I try to be there to make sure that she's not running about before hand but I figure that the testing result will be a reflection of where she's at while living what she knows to be her regular routine. Changing her routine to accommodate a blood pull seems more likely to cause stress for her, imo. 


--
Tanna 

April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)
Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 


Re: Testing ACTH right out of the paddock??

LJ Friedman
 

If I remember correctly, it is preferred that horses are relaxed and mellow without any strenuous activity before testing. So perhaps you should stall him.?  I’m sure you’ll get a moderator to comment soon
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

lindsaykrauland@...
 

Thank you, everyone, for your time and effort in offering your advice and points for discussion!  I greatly appreciate you all for trying to help Audi!!

Lavinia, I posted those photos you requested.  Let me know if you would like to see anything else.  Also, Lisa worked up a couple really great collages comparing Audi’s progress from March through last week, and those are in his album as well.

Dr. Kellon, thanks for clarifying your comments!  I am glad that you can see improvement in his body condition!  I was able to see some minor changes in him, but your trained eye is seeing several things I missed.  You mentioned ample calories and protein-  Do you think his current diet is providing that? 

Regarding soundness, he has been intermittently sound, at best.  I welcome Lisa to chime in with any additional details or corrections based on her observations:

Pre-Feb 2020
Audi was a lesson horse at a local barn.  He was used primarily with beginning riders in a sand arena.  From the ground, he looked sound at all gaits, though I will say I noticed he felt a bit off from the saddle when cantering.  It may be a conformation issue.  His front feet interfered with each other.  He was only ridden in splint boots to protect his front legs.  Barn staff advised that he was on daily Previcox and was “a baby about his feet.”  He was shod, as the photos show.  Feet were essentially as shown in Lisa’s March photos.

Feb-May
In Feb, Audi passed a PPE for soundness at a walk and a trot in the vet’s paved parking lot.  We didn’t test at a canter.  I discontinued the NSAID with the vet’s blessing.  Lisa first saw him in early March, pulled his shoes that day, and left me with Easyboot Cloud Boots for his front feet.  He was in the Clouds with only brief breaks for cleaning/to air out for a couple weeks, but by then he seemed comfortable enough to go completely barefoot. In late March, I noted that he was playfully cantering, bucking, and rearing (while totally barefoot) with our other gelding, but I witnessed such exuberance only one time.  Around April or so, he started looked uncomfortable again, so we put him back in his Clouds, and he has been booted on the fronts (and briefly on the hinds) pretty much ever since.  He was still in regular ridden work (2x/week or so and booted) but was stiff and short-strided at times, especially during warm up.  He always found it at least a little difficult to stand for hoof trims, but his hoof form was rapidly improving.  He’s not been one for spontaneous trotting or cantering but generally seemed sound at the walk.

May-Aug
Audi had what appeared to be a laminitic episode in late May.  He was already booted 24/7 on the fronts, and of course we continued that.  We pulled him out of ridden work and formal exercise, tested for PPID, and initiated pergolide treatment.  Audi began to be very uncomfortable during hoof trims, and some gains in hoof health/form were lost.  Definitely no spontaneous trotting or cantering during this time, and appeared intermittently lame— and very slow!— at the walk.  In late July, Lisa started a couple rounds of hoof casts/DIM.  While the fronts were casted, I used his Cloud boots on his hinds but never really felt they changed anything, other than making his more likely to drag his back toes. Audi also seemed more uncomfortable during trims than he had been earlier.

Sept-Nov
These months have been a real roller coaster!  I increased Audi’s CP twice, and noted that he looked better each time, though the improvements weren’t necessarily long-lasting.  I noted a couple occasions of spontaneous trotting and a couple canters, but other days he seems sluggish and slow even at a walk.  His second round of hoof casts (with composite shoes) were removed on Sept 8.  He appeared to have blown abscesses on both front feet, and his heel bulbs were rubbed raw due to some sand/dirt that got wedged between the heels and casts.  I gave him a break from his boots for a week or so to allow the heels to heal, but then I started booting him again.  I began to formally rehab him with hand walks/trots, and by late Oct, my young daughter began riding him lightly at a walk with occasional short trotting (sand arena), and he looked sound.  In Oct I also began to experiment with leaving him unbooted, except for exercise sessions.  However, when he looked sore following his trim on 11/3, I put him back in boots, and he is currently booted w/felt pads on the fronts.

I hope I’ve address everyone’s questions.  Again, thank you all, and I am really enjoying the productive discussion!  I’m learning quite a lot!

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Testing ACTH right out of the paddock??

NinaJW
 

So I scheduled an ACTH test. They’re coming tomorrow. Last time I had to keep him in his stall overnight an with grass hay only. This time they say just let him be turned out and they can test him. Is this an acceptable test method?
--
Nina and Jadon
Kentucky 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nina%20and%20Jadon

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=244202


Re: 2 months after initial laminitis episode

W.phyllis60@...
 

Hi Sherry,
I know I’m jumping ahead here but trying to prepare for the future with a horse prone to laminitis. This winter when it freezes here in the north will Patches be able to go out on the pasture? And then looking to the spring, I believe I will need a grazing muzzle for her, is that correct? Can she get along with a muzzle that restricts her intake or will it need to be a closed muzzle? There are two horses and 8 acres of orchard grass pasture so I know she will need something. My horse is out 6 hours a day per vet recommendation (after the initial spring work up to full pasture time). What would you recommend for Patches?
Thanks so much,
--
Phyllis W in OH 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Phyllis%20and%20Patches
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255382&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Vit e (again)

Cheryl Oickle
 

My horse would not eat the mad barn products however I tried and a lot of wasted $$ and attempts. Went to mineral balancing which is granulated specific to hay analysis......nope again after more $$ and major tries.
She will take vitamin e capsules dissolved in her soaked hay cubes i soak for 24 hr and salt eagerly...Cannot find a product other than Dr Reeds pellets for vitamin supplement she will take! Not ideal but better than nothing I suppose.
Good luck!

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: vit e,

LJ Friedman
 

What do you mean you’ve been suspicious of vitamin  E synthetic? What makes sense now?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Vit e (again)

LJ Friedman
 

My understanding is that vitamin E capsules, vit a capsules,, flax and salt are always added separately no matter the supplement that you are using.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

LJ Friedman
 

Following this thread. Do you have boots and pads ready on hand? If not, remember many of us have used Styrofoam and duct tape for immediate relief when needed.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Hay analysis

Tucker
 

Thank you Bill! I got your web site address and will contact you through that. 
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Re: top line,or lack of

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

Hi Sandy,

 If she doesn't have PPID or EMS this question belongs on Horsekeeping.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Advice on New Blood Work, Please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Lisa,

I basically agree with Lavinia's comments (including the thank you!).

Let me explain a little further what I meant about that RF divot/crack. If you look at the sole surface, it lines up precisely with the tip of the frog and the heel clefts, meaning it is the center of the toe. The crack here is a dead giveaway the toe is too long. You don't have to touch the sole to bring the toe back. I can't tell for sure from the photo of the sole but it looks like the sole may be pulled forward at the toe. Don't be fooled by that. There is as much separation at the toe as at the quarters. If you rasp the toe from 10:00 to 2:00 to remove the wall in front of the crack you will not invade the sole.

Backing up the toe and taking the hoof wall completely out of weightbearing will  put him onto his soles but pads and boots will protect him. I actually suspect his discomfort is coming more from the hind foot/heel area and traces back to the condition the feet were in from the March photos. You have come a LONG way since then but his feet are still underrun, frogs contracted and while the new hoof growth looks much healthier he is still having to deal with the poor quality and flaring at ground level and approximately half way up. The only way to eliminate that and encourage better use of the structures in the hind foot is to take the walls out of weightbearing (which they are in no condition to do anyway, thus the flaring), back up the toes and pad the feet. Those structures are weak and will take some time to adapt. If you continue to allow weightbearing through the flares and weak connection, they will continue to tear

We're getting some conflicting information about his soundness. On one hand he is said to be sound until after the last trim but he was unwilling to hold his feet up to be trimmed for quite some time. Sound to me means freely moving at the walk, trot and canter on all surfaces. Is he sound?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


top line,or lack of

Sandy Gazzard
 

hi, my mare has been loseing weight and her top line is less than id like I monitor her weight and feed accordingly.  she has adlib soaked hay. thunderbrooks hay cobs. salt ,minerals,brewers yeast
and   chase berrys-- but she just tested neg for cushings. so will discontinue that.
 what can I safely feed for top line.
she wont eat cuppra feed.
many thanks 
sandy
, joined 27th January 2020. location. Cornwall-England


Re: Vit e (again)

Allison
 

Not a direct answer to your vit e question but... be aware that the madbarn AT can take some getting used to for some horses. My gelding took a few weeks to really decide he was going to eat it. Not trying to discourage you from using the product,  just be aware.
--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Sonseeahray Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Keegan Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Keegan
Keegan XRays and Hooves Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255699&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Re: Hay analysis

Firstqualityhay@...
 

Hi Tucker,

We’re a small farm and delivery doesn’t really pencil out for us, so I’m sorry we cannot deliver.  However we have folks come from long distances with trailers, horse trailers and some rent a UHaul van trailer for a day.  We have one customer, who turned us onto this group, that rents a very large Uhaul and we can generally pack around 250 bales into it.  They are from NC too.

I’m struggling to figure out how to create a case history folder such that I can upload our hay analysis.  I would be glad to share them if you could send me an email

Take care,
Bill J in VA

--
Bill J. in VA 2020
FirstQualityHay.com


Re: The Veil prevails... !?

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thanks Maxine, that makes me feel better. He has lost a little weight but I am trying to compensate with adding some more OD balance cubes or adjusting hay on the days when he is just not as interested in his mash with supplements. I am at least getting his morning supplements in him most of the time and about 50/50 night time.   It is such a strange paradigm for a horse that used to be a chow hound and would eat anything I put in front of him.  
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: The Veil prevails... !?

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Nancy
My gelding was off his bucket feed almost completely for about a month after we started him on Prascend--and only 1/4 of a tablet to begin (0.25mg) then up to 0.5mg after 3 weeks. Then he was on and off picky with it for another couple of months after that--some days he'd up-end the bucket and snuffle the fallen feed, other days he'd leave some. He was eating hay and limited grass (not IR) fine. When I upped his dose to 0.75mg for the seasonal rise we went through it all again for weeks. Very annoying to waste feed. I made sure he was eating his hay, and reduced the quantity of his bucket feed, which meant that at least some days he ate most of it. Any supplements that were essential, I syringed. We don't have APF, so that wasn't an option.
If Vinnie is eating his hay and not losing weight, maybe just give him some more time?
Dangles has settled well on 0.5mg at the moment, but he does have days where he seems to feel my cooking is not up to scratch and he tips his bucket. It helps me feel less frustrated if I can dis-associate supplements from bucket feed as much as possible. 

Have you seen the Picky Eater's Checklist in the Files? There might be some useful suggestions in there for you. 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9b%20Pulling%20it%20Together/Picky%20Eaters%20Checklist.pdf


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Commercial Feed Analysis Library - Sun, 11/08/2020 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Commercial Feed Analysis Library

When:
Sunday, 8 November 2020

Description:

Commercial Feed Analysis Library

Over the years individual ECIR Group members have sent various commercial feeds to be tested then generously shared the information. The Commercial Feed Analysis Library is a new term for an old file folder where any member can go and view unbiased analyses of commercial feeds. These analyses are a valuable part of the science that the ECIR uses to help our IR and PPID horses and are valuable tools used to prevent laminitis. 

If you have an analysis of a commercial feed please, instead of uploading it to your own folder, please consider sharing it with the entire group by by notifying us here.

View the Commercial Feed Analysis Library 

Thanks for your help and cooperation.

- ECIR Group Owners and Support Team

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