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Re: od balance cubes

LJ Friedman
 

I would agree with the five bag issue not being a problem. I can only tell you what the representative stated to me. I don’t really pay  it much mind but if she wants to offer 10 bags then why not
--

The Purina feed challenge link is not for the balance cube product. Only items branded with Purina
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: od balance cubes

LJ Friedman
 

Thanks for the reply. My order is supposedly at work for 10 bag free trial..  I will post if I’m successful or unsuccessful.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Lab work results interpretation

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

No worries, Maria, it's confusing when results are in different units from what we usually see!

Thank you, Val, for providing units in your message so we didn't have to ask...

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Lab work results interpretation

Maria Duran
 

Forget about my question, I am a bit thick today, I have already noticed that the units I was reading were different.

So sorry for the mess.
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


Re: Lab work results interpretation

Maria Duran
 

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 04:33 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
Hi Val,

I agree Twister needs pergolide.  
Dr. Kellon is ACTH - 39.6 pmol/l a positive for PPID? I am a bit confused here because I thought lab normals for PPID were correct and below 50 at this time of the year was right, being up to 100 pmol/l a very likely positive but still in the grey zone for and older horse.

So, over what lab value do we consider a positive diagnose?

Thank you.

--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


Re: od balance cubes

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I'm not sure that Triple Crown feeds qualify for that offer. They're not Purina. In any case, it is an offer for two buy one get one free coupons, very different from what LJ mentioned.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: od balance cubes

Cindy Giovanetti
 
Edited

Link to the trial.  I'm not sure if those of us already feeding TCTBC are eligible.

https://www.purinamills.com/horse-feed/campaign/60-day-trial/thank-you
--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/
History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Re: od balance cubes

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

LJ,

A straight switch shouldn't be a problem but no problem with doing it slower either. I would question the claim about bag 5. Is that bag 5 of using it as a complete feed, which would be about 2 weeks? How much were those horses actually getting?  Refusal after a few weeks hasn't been the experience here over many years - almost 20 to be exact. If they are soaked enough to fall apart he shouldn't have any trouble eating them.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: horse sensitive to mineral supplementation

llkeach50
 

I have one Morgan who is sensitive to copper sulfate. When I switched to poly copper all his diarrhea cleared up. I almost always use poly but this time the hay needed a larger amount of copper and zinc so I switched to sulfate so I could use less. Didn’t work for him, the other three are ok with it.

Linda K
NY 2003 


Re: horse sensitive to mineral supplementation

Saskia Visser
 

Thanks Clare, it sure gets messy doesn't it :-/  He has, thank god, not been too gassy with it.  That would be yet something else to worry about.  Has it improved now that you have stopped the supplement?  I was surprised by how quick it stopped the goop poop when I stopped the supplements.
--
Saskia V in CH 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Saskia%20and%20Skipper


Re: horse sensitive to mineral supplementation

Saskia Visser
 

Thank You Maxine.  That is very interesting.  I use Forageplus minerals (UK), when I have test results I use individual minerals to balance the hay and when I am waiting to get new Hay results I use Forageplus Laminae-Plus Equine Balancer as it seems to actually come very close to what I need to balance the hay I have gotten so far.   I have not had to supplement Phosphorous before so have not used that during the most part of those months but the Laminae-Plus Balancer does contain Phosphorous as monosodium phosphate.  Unfortunately, I did not make detailed notes to see if the poop situation got worse when switching.  I was going to finish the bag but will resort back to individual minerals and adding them 1 by 1 to see which he reacts to.  Spare time, that is just too funny ;-))  Thank you very much for your thoughts and time :-)
--
Saskia V in CH 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Saskia%20and%20Skipper


Re: New to all of this.

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

It is very common for Arab endurance horses to have problems when they are no longer working, as Arabs are commonly EMS at baseline.  However, keep in mind there is nothing you could have done to prevent the PPID.  One thing you can do while they are out of work is only feed what they need for hay, using slow feed nets.  Usually it requires feeding at least 2-3x a day though.

Because high NSC also means high fructans, it is often assumed that high NSC hay causes laminitis.  But unless the NSC is up around 35-40%, which I have never seen in a hay test (and in addition to laminitis you would have signs of sepsis, like diarrhea and fever), the issue is not the NSC.  It is only the ESC and starch numbers that are related to endocrinopathic/metabolic laminitis, which is caused by high insulin +/- PPID.  The Laminitis Site talks about these 2 versions of laminitis and the difference between them.
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/laminitis.html
Your hay has very nice low starch, and ESC + starch are <10%, our "safe" cut off.  Some horses are more sensitive and need ESC + starch to be <7%.  Until you have the PPID controlled, you won't know how much of the high insulin is due to the PPID driving it up, or due to your horses' inherent metabolic baseline.  I would feed the lowest ESC hay right now though, at least until K is feeling better.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Lab work results interpretation

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Val,

I agree Twister needs pergolide.  Both horses have insulin values that are very much in a grey zone but that only reflects their current diet. No harm in continuing to feed them that way if they are doing well. They are certainly in no immediate danger of acute laminitis.

Could you post Blackjack's radiographs and photos of both horses? Push any overhanging mane to the other side so we can see their necks clearly.  Winter plan looks good although in general we suggest AminoTrace+ rather than Omneity.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: od balance cubes

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

LJ, I would still transition Jesse.  The OD hay cubes are mineral balanced so they might take some getting used to.  I noticed my horse was unsure of the taste at first, but now he loves them.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Lab work results interpretation

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Val,

They both are "compensated IR" so what you are doing for diet is working for them both.  So you may feel overwhelmed but you are doing a great job!  It would be great if you could work on Case Histories for these 2 as well. 

Twister's IR is likely due to the PPID and his insulin my should come down a bit once that is controlled.  After he's been on his full dose of Prascend for 3-4 weeks, ideally you'll have him retested to make sure his ACTH has normalized.  Now that we are near the end of the seasonal rise, however, we recommend waiting until December to check.  His ACTH should be in the middle of the lab range if the Prascend dose is adequate.  Keep in mind that PPID is progressive, and we do recommend testing again in late summer at the start of the seasonal rise to make sure the ACTH is still normalized at the current dose.  Have you has any problems with getting Twister on the Prascend?  Our members have TONNES of experience and advice if you are having difficulties.

Blackjack's IR is likely not related to ACTH so he may need tight diet control for the rest of his life.  As he is "Compensated IR", which is a great place for an IR horse to be, you can keep doing what you are doing.  But because he is a QH (they are not often IR without PPID driving it) I am a bit suspicious of his spring laminitis event.  It seems that what is often diagnosed as rotation due to laminitis is actually capsular rotation due largely to trim mechanics, which is still painful but less likely due to IR and diet, and more of a trim issue.  You can set up a photo album here and upload his radiographs and some trim photos if you'd like any feedback.

As for keeping them together, I think that would still be possible as it sounds like they are on the same diet?  If not, can you separate them in the same paddock?  I have 2 geldings (mine and a boarder's) on very different diets and I use metal panels in the pole barn and Electrobraid outside the pole barn to separate them 24/7.  I previously had an older mare as a boarder and I did not need to power the Electrobraid to keep them apart, but the new gelding is a curious monkey and needs the Electrobraid to be powered.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Can high iron cause diarrhea?

Tucker
 

I have been feeding hay that tested very high in iron so have been shaking it out well to remove dust and dirt clumps and then rinsing it thoroughly before feeding. My donkey who is also getting the hay has diarrhea daily...she also gets beet pulp and supplements. Can high iron cause diarrhea? Only the donkey has it, not Indigo. They have also been eating leaves and no way around that, we are surrounded by trees. I fenced off the area where the leaves drop, but they blow into their paddock area and I am suspecting it is the leaves that is causing the problem. I have also read that beet pulp may be high in iron, should I stop feeding it since the hay is high in iron?  Is there anything I can feed my donkey to help her? Thank you.  
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Lab work results interpretation

Val McAuley
 

I would like someone to interpret the lab results for my two geldings which I had tested for PIID and EMS. 
Twister who is a 25 year old QH gelding showed weight loss and poor shedding out in spring. His weight improved with soaked Beet pulp and hay cubes with grow in win ration from buckeye feeds. Also has free hay. 
I had him tested on Oct 21 which as follows, ACTH - 39.6 pmol/l , glucose- 4.6mmol/l, insulin- 100pmol/l. I did the conversion for GI ratio which is 5.88. Is he compensated IR? My vet recommended putting him on Prascend to control ACTH. I did notice that he was drinking a lot of water in summer. 
Blackjack is a 16 year old QHgelding who had a laminitis episode last March/April. I had xrays done which showed rotation of coffin bone in RF and LF. ACTH was 2.0 and didn’t do glucose/insulin as vet wasn’t sure about tests. 
Soles are very thin and using boots when riding. Diet implement with beet pulp/ hay cubes and hay and mad barn minerals omenity. 
Lab results were ACTH- 2.2 pmol/l, glucose- 5.0 mmol/l, insulin- 100pmol/l. Blood work was drawn around 2 pm. Both horses had hay to eat prior to tests as I had to haul to clinic. BJ s GI ratio is 8.6. 
I am trying to make some decisions about how to manage winter feeding. I have to board horses for winter and need to decide how I can manage that. I usually kept them together in one dry pen with shelter/water. I feed beet pulp/soaked hay cubes with minerals/ ground flax. 
I do have a new farrier who has been trimming Blackjack since July. I am considering getting new boots for winter also. 
I feel a little overwhelmed but so glad to be part of this group. 
Val 
Saskatchewan
Canada
Nov 2017
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Val%20and%20Becky


Re: od balance cubes

Lorna Cane
 

LJ, does this actually mean 10 x 50-pound bags of ODTBC for zero money? You didn't say Timothy Balance Cubes. But I don't think straight timothy comes in cubes,does it?
Really?
No strings?
That's an amazing offer .

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Hay analysis

Tucker
 

In Asheboro, NC...the center of the state. The North Carolina Zoological park is here. 
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Re: od balance cubes

LJ Friedman
 


7:20pm   

purina  is offering a  free 10 bag trial of the  balance  timothy cubes. My nutritional rep from Parina said that 10 bags is a good trial because she has seen some horses stop eating the cubes at bag five.
With that being said, if I’m switching from Timothy pellets to the Timothy balance cubes, would I be doing a partial change over like one would do with hay or a different type of pellet? 75 % old   25% new for a few days  then, 50-50,  for a few days,then 25% old and 75% new?. etc  Or go straight to the  new cubes because jesse is currently eating timothy pellets?
Reminder, I need to see if he’s going to quit these cubes. Assuming if they’re in a soupy mash it should not be a problem-- 
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 

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