Date   

Re: Custom Feed?

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Lindsay,

Regarding your question on soy hull pellets, they only need about 30-60 min to soak (although they soften within minutes), they are lower in sugar, and they do not need to be rinsed.  They can be fed dry too, although I think the point of soaking them is to make a mush that mineral supplements will stick to.  They are similar in price here to beet pulp, maybe a couple $ more per 50 lb bag.  I switched to them because I was finding bits of corn and rice bran in my beet pulp pellet bags, plus I wanted to eliminate the extra rinsing step.  If you were thinking of replacing beet pulp with them you would want to check that you keep the calories the same, and of course your major and trace element ratios could change.  A good place to start is the Dairy One feed library.  It has average (and min-max values) for beet pulp and soy hull pellets, under Dry Grain and Protein Feeds, respectively.
https://dairyone.com/services/forage-laboratory-services/feed-composition-library/interactive-feed-composition-libraries/
They both seem to be high in iron on average though.

If you are looking for someone to help you mineral balance your custom feed, we have a list of experienced balancers in our files (look for the file: "Hay Balancing") who will do it as per Dr. Kellon's NRC Plus course for a fee.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: River - Laminitis/Founder

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

I see that Anna uploaded some photos yesterday, as well as the rads a couple of days before that. Weird that she can't upload other photos.

If you end up having a problem adding photos to his album, please let me know so we can figure out why that is happening. While it's a problem, you can send them directly to me to upload, if needed.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Custom Feed?

lindsaykrauland@...
 

Thanks, Martha & Dr. Kellon!

I did email OD.  Thanks for the suggestion.  I’d never thought to try and order direct.
--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Audi's Diet

lindsaykrauland@...
 

As always, thanks for the info!

I hope I’m not being stubborn with the diet stuff.  I just want to have a REALLY good idea that Audi NEEDS a major overhaul before I put in the time and money necessary to switch up his current diet.  And since, Dr. Kellon, you have said you think he is gaining some weight, it gives me a glimmer of hope that maybe we’re heading in the right direction already??

I was re-organizing my horse binder this morning and came across the previous diets I had been feeding Audi.  Both of these were offered with free-choice hay, which at the time was the native/Bermuda mix that was analyzed on 4/15/20.

Diet 1:
5 lb Safe Starch
2 lb Flax
4 lb ODTBC
+minerals etc (including Tri-Amino for the low protein hay)

Diet 2:
5 lb Safe Starch
2 lb Flax
6 lb ODTBC
+minerals etc (including Tri-Amino for the low protein hay)

Keeping in mind that these diets didn’t seem to yield major changes in Audi’s body condition (and both were fed for at least 2 months each), does it seem that changing his current diet will yield any better results? I promise I won’t ask again!  

Current diet is:
15 lb hay (from 10/23 analysis)
4 lb Safe Starch
1 lb Flax
3 lb RSR Beet Pulp
2 lb ODTBC
+minerals etc

Proposed diet is:
10 lb hay
6 lb RSR Beet Pulp
3 lb Wheat Bran
4 lb ODTBC
1 lb Flax
+minerals etc

OR (depending on pricing):
10 lb hay
12 lb ODTBC
1 lb Flax
1 lb RSR Beet Pulp
+minerals etc

And on that note, what is considered a “good” daily weight gain for a mature horse?

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Cornell vs. BET lab results for Insulin now UPDATE

taskerudet
 

Cheryl,

He was tender footed with the extremely high insulin and I had boots for him. In addition, he had terrible thrush and along his back the skin had some kind of gunk on it. I was giving him metformin which only seemed to act opposite of expected. His demeaner changed drastically from silly boy to freakazoid.He definitely was not right. We have our silly boy back and he is sound. He is cushings and has been on 5 mg pergolide capsules for some time now. During his insulin rise, increasing pergolide had no affect on insulin even as it decreased the ACTH.
--
Ellen
July 2011, Goldendale, WA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ellen%20and%20Crackers
Crackers' Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1645


Re: Cornell vs. BET lab results for Insulin now UPDATE

taskerudet
 

Dr. Kellon,

Yes the same hay and no weight loss and no loss of interest in the hay. I purchased this orchard grass hay from a farmer in Madras, Oregon. His farm is called Healthy Hay 4 Horses and I believe it is. It is clean and tested to the standards of this group. Prior to moving to Washington State from California I fed tested bermuda and he didn't eat it with the gusto he has for the Orchard Grass.
--
Ellen
July 2011, Goldendale, WA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ellen%20and%20Crackers
Crackers' Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1645


Re: River - Laminitis/Founder

lmittler@...
 

Thank you so much, Lavinia.

Anna has tried to upload River’s hoof pics several times with no success. She’s not sure why she’s having trouble since she uploaded the other pics just fine.

I am trimming him this afternoon so I’ll back his toes and take updated pictures. 


--
Lisa Mittler
Barefoot Hoof Practitioner
South and Central Texas
January 2019


Re: Ashwangandha uses Dr K?

Tracy
 

Thanks Lynn!  I see Bulk Supplements sells it.  Salsa is about 830 lbs - similar to Relevante.

Recently added extra Mg and 200mg B6 to Salsa's diet.  Will see if those seem to help on the next few rides.
Salsa was in a bubble too - I let life get in the way and didn't ride him for a year.  Shame on me - that time off wasn't good for Salsa or myself.

Going to tuck the ashwangandha away in my mind and might try it.


--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: River - Laminitis/Founder

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Lisa,

I noticed that the latest rads have been posted:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=256537

Agree, there's definitely room for improvement in the rad technique. Check out this link for some suggestions for getting rads done:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1571

Maybe some of those points will help when you are working with the vet.

What does show up is that the sole depth is barely adequate, heels are underrun, toes are definitely way ahead of where they need to be. There's high ringbone on both, slight amount of bony column rotation on the RF.

Without a full set of actual hoof photos, I can only make a few general suggestions for the trim: definitely back the toes up so they are horizontally shorter but don't touch anything on the sole/bottom in the remainder of the foot.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: New member in New Mexico ..... basic help/questions - thank you!

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Sharon
Welcome to the group! While you are getting your case history and photos folder organised, please have a read of this welcome message that we send all new members. It contains lots of information on how to navigate the group, where various resources are located, and the group’s philosophy.  You can click on the blue links in each section for further information. The Wiki is also a great resource for looking up anything you need to know about navigating the group. 

 

Hello 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

 

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group.We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

 

difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Cornell vs. BET lab results for Insulin now UPDATE

Cheryl Oickle
 

Curious...was he lame at all with insulin as high as 600?
As well is he Cushings? 


--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Ashwangandha uses Dr K?

Lynn
 

Hi Tracy - Not Dr. K...but Relevante weighs approximately 890 lbs. I give him in 1 tsp in his a.m. supplement baggy and 1 tsp. in his p.m. supplement baggy. I have given it everyday since we started it.  Pertaining to my dosage..Dr. Kellon said...

"You're within the reported dosages for even concentrated Ashwangandha extracts so no concerns there! It is rather unique among the adaptogens in having a calming/anti-anxiety effect." 

Hope this helps. I have found it works better than anything else that I've tried.  Because he has been in such a bubble ...he would experience some anxiety/nervousness - we've been experiencing wind with the fall weather, sounds you name it. The incident where I really noticed a change is the first time a month ago that he got a bath with his new Insta Hot Bath System.  the components are blindingly white - the barn owner asked me to assemble it near where she was bringing the horses into the barn from the fields. None of them would go near it and were freaking out. When I took Relevante out there - he was certainly interested and giving it a good stare but I "introduced" him to it....got him to touch it and he was fine. I was even able to bathe his face (of course keeping water out of his ears/eyes) and his unmentionables with very little fuss. He did really well.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Ashwangandha uses Dr K?

Tracy
 

If we want to try it - is it best used over time?  Not “just” before a stressful event right?
How much is needed per 100 lbs of horse weight?

Thank you!
Tracy
--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: Cornell vs. BET lab results for Insulin now UPDATE

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Glad to hear it. Just clarifying, were you feeding the same batch of hay from September 2018 until last week?  Has he lost weight?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Ashwangandha uses Dr K?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There are no contraindications with PPID/IR based on studies in other species and I have used it in selective circumstances for man years. It's not a cure all but can help in situations where the primary issue is anxiety.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Fertilizer

Brenda Gasch Mittelstadt
 

That was Cindy. Sorry
--
-Brenda

September 2020, Dodgeville WI USA

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Brenda%20and%20Stormy


Re: Fertilizer

Brenda Gasch Mittelstadt
 

Hi Gindy

Great minds think alike. I picked up some Scout Indian Grass seed to plant this fall. Have half a pasture in Reed Canary that’s supposed to be safer late in season and they do like that. I might be able to graze them some if I can be careful on timing. So hard to know. 


I feel the same about the pastures. Maybe time to find a rescue livestock animal that can happily spend years grazing out beautiful horse pastures. 
--
-Brenda

September 2020, Dodgeville WI USA

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Brenda%20and%20Stormy


Ashwangandha uses Dr K?

Tracy
 

Hoping Dr K sees this - on the post about Relevante's possible hay belly Ashwangandha came up and you mentioned it's unique - having an ability to calm.
I am getting Salsa back out on the trails and he sure is nervous (!!!).

How can we consider using Ashwangandha in our horses?  Especially IR/PPID horses.  Any contraindications?

**My doctor has me using Ashwangandha in the evenings for my slightly high night time cortisol - so I am fairly familiar with it for humans.  I respect some herbs have medicinal qualities.

Tracy
--
Tracy and Salsa (1999 model year Paso Fino)
Middle TN USA, September 2019
Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tracy%20and%20Salsa
Photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95827


Re: Cornell vs. BET lab results for Insulin now UPDATE

taskerudet
 

Dr. Kellon,

Crackers’ most recent October blood tests show a great improvement in insulin.  Insulin dropped from 44 uIU/mL to 27.72.  The insulin in two tests last September and November were both over 200 uIU/mL. Nothing in his management has changed since discontinuing Metformin and adding WIRX to his feeding regimen this past January when his Insulin was 671.60 uIU/mL. He has been fed the same soaked Orchard Hay for the entire testing time between the end of 2018 and last week.  He has just started being fed a new tested and balanced batch of Orchard Hay this week.  What reasons would I have to doubt the efficacy of WIRX?

The IR calculator has not budged on the Uncompensated IR result but I am jumping for joy with these numbers. I will test again in January.  I don’t believe he has ever had all the numbers low at one time.  All tests results are updated in my case history.


--
Ellen
July 2011, Goldendale, WA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ellen%20and%20Crackers
Crackers' Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1645


Re: Custom Feed?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

With as much as you are going to be feeding on non-hay, it would be worthwhile to contact Aurelio at Ontario Dehy and get a price on a pallet of the ODTB cubes.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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