Date   

Re: APF alternative?

HL's Mom
 

Dr. K recommended jiaogulan to me as an alternative to APF, too. It's way cheaper, and I think it's helping my girl. I got it from a supplier in Colorado.
--
Diann  in VA 2020


Re: Use of Palmitoylethanolamide(PEA) for pain management

Jeanne Q
 


Re: Use of Palmitoylethanolamide(PEA) for pain management

 

LJ, check your browser … the link opens right up for me ...

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History


Re: Re= Question About Pergolide In A Treat

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Lynn. You and I must own the same horse....I have tried numerous renditions of treats.  Here's what I have tried in the past. 
00 size vegan capsule to hide the pill in...worked for a little while.
melt stabul 1 treats any flavor and mix prascend in to regular carrier- make a well in the center of the carrier feed that is all mixed up and wet, place the melted stabul 1 and the prascend in the well and cover slightly with the rest of the moistened carrier.
Mary's Gone Crackers and almond butter - take one cracker,break in half, place small dab of almond butter on cookie, add the prascend and put other half of cracker on top and hand feed it- introduce the crackers and the almond butter separately and make it like a really really big deal and fun to get this "treat"- but really believe it too , because they will see right through you!!!!! 
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: Homemade Pill Pockets to hid Prascend Tablets

Lesley Fraser
 

I used to bake these flax/cinnamon/unsweetened apple sauce treats for Omar - I thought they tasted a little bland, but he loved them and they did the trick at hiding his Prascend after everything else had failed. I made a batch of them every week. When I put my house on the market, the estate agent came round with paperwork for me to sign and said, “Oh - you’re the lady who bakes cakes for her horse.” Yup, that’s me.

Lesley & over the bridge Omar,
2012, UK

--
Lesley, 11-2012

Norfolk, UK

Omar - Case History


Re: Sourcing Tested Timothy Hay in So Cal

LJ Friedman
 

I remember reading somewhere that Bermuda can cause colic problems when it switched over from a different hay. So I don’t know if it’s good to switch to Bermuda. If you’re using it for your horses whole life,   maybe that’s fine.?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Use of Palmitoylethanolamide(PEA) for pain management

LJ Friedman
 

Can you send a link of what you purchased the cost etc.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Use of Palmitoylethanolamide(PEA) for pain management

Jeanne Q
 

No I have not tried the PEA yet.  I did purchase some but without more information I was hesitant.  Thank you for the report Dr. Kellon.  I may give it a try now.  I gave gabapentin a try but Glory went off her feed while on it so I quit.  It did not seem to have much effect on her pain anyway.
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


Re: APF alternative?

 

Deb, jiaogulan is what I see recommended most frequently as a substitute for APF.  Jiaogulan is an adaptogen, as are the active ingredients in APF, which you could also research.  
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Re= Question About Pergolide In A Treat

Lynn
 

Thanks Sue. Knowing how much Relevante loves hay - my caregiver told me today that she made a small hay "ball" with the capsule inside and fed it to him. He snarfed it up without thinking twice. So we'll see how long this lasts...LOL...Unfortunately the barn owner does not want to get into syringing so I hope this approach lasts for a while.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Question About Pergolide In A Treat

Lynn
 

Hello All! I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's posts and (forgive me) I feel better knowing it's not just my boy. Well my caregiver informed me today she hit on a solution so simple (and yet elegant) I don't know why I didn't think of it.  Relevante loves his hay above all else. So she made a little hay ball with the capsule in the middle and he gobbled it up from her hand faster than you can say "pill."  So we'll see how long this lasts! LOL
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Question About Pergolide In A Treat

Bonnie
 

I am presently using a small piece of carrot drilled out with a slim knife to feed a compounded pergolide capsule. I place it on top of 4 ODBC that have been fluffed up with warm water. I use "The Wonderful Treat Bowl" to serve this and basically anything put in this bowl will be accepted. I hold it under the pony's chin in case the pill gets dropped. Usually carrot and pill are scooped up in a mouthful of cube fluff. I noticed it takes about 4 chewing motions to move the carrot up between his back teeth and know we have succeeded when I hear the carrot crunch.
Lad has been conditioned to accept things in this special bowl as I randomly take him a surprise treat in it. He comes running.
However I know that on average every six weeks I will have to find a different pill treat. You can go back and work your way through the list again after time passes so don't give up forever if, for instance, tomorrow your boy does not want the thing he loved today.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Hello and Welcome AnnG

 

Hello AnnG!
As a new member you need our New Member post. Usually we catch the very first post from a new member and reply with the information that you need immediately. Your first post got overlooked so I am going to attach the info you need here in a new message just for you.

Below you will find an explanation of what we offer each new member and what steps we ask you to take as a new member. 

You didn't ask any questions or assistance for a specific issue with your horse. I am going to add our "New Member" informational post below to get you started. Please read thru the detailed post below. If you have a horse that is Insulin Resistant, or has Cushings and you want to get advice or assistance for that horse then we ask that you provide a health history for your horse. We ask members to creates a Case History for each horse so that we can offer you advice that is based on your horse's health history. 

We hope you will reply to this message and begin a conversation about your horse.

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Question About Pergolide In A Treat

 

Hello AnnG!
As a new member you need our New Member post. Usually we catch the very first post from a new member and reply with the information that you need immediately. Your first post got overlooked so I am going to attach the info you need here and in a stand alone post. Below you will find an explanation of what we offer each new member and what steps we ask you to take as a new member. 

You didn't ask any questions or assistance for a specific issue with your horse. I am going to create a new message just to get you started. Please look for a message with your name in the subject line.

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Question About Pergolide In A Treat

Aha899@...
 

I have been putting the Prascend tablet in a small piece of apple for a couple of months. Seems to work thus far. Carrots do not work well  as if they chew the carrot they are likely to also chew and taste the bitterness of pill. 
--
AnnG in CA 2020


Re: Homemade Pill Pockets to hid Prascend Tablets

Cheryl Oickle
 

These horses are challenging.  I have to switch it up quite often...Horse cookies via ECIR recipe, to peanut shells, to dried apricots, apples, carrots, celery....She can sniff the pergolide out  in almost everything.

Good luck


--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Use of Palmitoylethanolamide(PEA) for pain management

LJ Friedman
 

website for pea um isnt opening  can you resend it?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: New Member From Michigan Introduction

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Patience,

We'll have a better idea of what help you need as far as diet once you've had bloodwork but please do read your welcome message with regard to both the hay and concentrates that are safe for an IR horse.  With respect to weight loss, the Thyro-L will help jump start that but (much like people) the real key is diet and exercise.  For a horse that's overweight we recommend no more than 1.5% of their current weight or 2% of their ideal weight in hay and concentrates per day until their target weight is reached. 

In order to get that sorted out you'll need to weigh her hay (a lot of people use luggage scales) and not just go by flakes as not all flakes are the same size. 

As you're bringing your mare back into work you will need to be cognizant not just of the fact that you're rehabbing from an injury but that she'll need to be conditioned to handle any more intense exercise.   Did you do any kind of PRP into the suspensory?  Any shockwave or ultrasound treatment for it?  My gelding tore his right hind suspensory about 5 years ago now so I'm very familiar with the treatment and rehab protocols for suspensory injuries and bringing a horse back from one.  It took me about 6 months to get him back to his pre-injury level of fitness once we were cleared to do more than walk under saddle (4 months after his injury).

Given her age and the issue with her suspensory you may want to add PPID testing to the list of bloodwork just to rule out that she has elevated ACTH as PPID can contribute to issues with connective tissue. 

If you're using the pink Redmond salt be aware that the color comes from impurities and iron is just one of the issues with that.  It's really cheapest and most effective to use plain old table salt for NaCl.





APF alternative?

Deb Walker
 

This is a 2-part question:
1. Does anyone administer APF on a continual basis and is there a harm to doing so?
2. If the answer to #1 is yes, has anyone found an alternative to the very expensive APF formula which (for me) would make it impossible to give on a regular basis.

The reason I ask is that Scotty is very sleepy with low energy much of the time...which I know is normal for a 40'ish horse. However, after 2 days of 3ml APF, he just seems perkier. Thank you in advance for ideas and experience.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Re: New member in New Mexico ..... basic help/questions - thank you!

 

Sharon, PPID horses frequently encounter the ‘pergolide veil’ when started on pergolide and occasionally when the dose is increased.  They may go off their feed and seem a bit spacey.  There are ways to avoid this, such as starting the pergolide more gradually or using an adaptogen such as APF for a few days before starting pergolide.
I understand you’ve stopped the pergolide, which is a good move if you can’t manage the veil, but should you start it up again after more testing, keep this in mind.  Don’t hesitate to ask for more information if you are ready to start pergolide again.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

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