Date   

Whole Oats

Carlye
 

Hi all!  We are having trouble convincing Jolene to eat her supplements, and losing weight is not an option for her.  We switched her to beet pulp after we discovered her PPID back in October, and she is just not taking to it.  I've added salt to try and tempt her, but she essentially eats the Herb for Horses supplement she's been on for the last couple of years, and leaves everything else.  I have read that whole oats are safe, and thought of maybe trying her on that.  Any thoughts for or against?

Thanks!
--
Carlye
Ontario, 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jolene 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=256885


Re: Safe Canadian supplement for a picky boy?

Sherry Hite
 

Agree with LJ.  Only side affects for Pepper were  some weight loss that was immediately corrected with a little more beet pulp and an increase in urine volume which I understand to be normal. There is only one pill once a day and it is about 1/4 the size of the metformin pill.  
--
Sherry & Pepper, August 2015, No. Calif

 

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Pepper

Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5798  .

 

 



Re: Hay confusion

dbellusci
 

Thanks Sherry, I don’t know what is accurate anymore. When I double checked yesterday at PA dept of health (health.pa.gov) it says travelers over age 11 entering PA from locations outside the Commonwealth are required to produce evidence of neg test or place themselves in travel quarantine for 14 days, unless they receive a neg test result during that quarantine. There are exemptions, but none include picking up necessary feed for your animals. One exemption states that if I were a PA resident I could travel out of state and back no problem as long as it’s within 24 hrs. So I could go somewhere high risk in that time and return without getting fined apparently, because Covid knows it’s only been 24 hrs. But of course, the ridiculousness of these restrictions is not the purpose of my post. I don’t see the fine amts on there but my husband showed it to me on his phone back when we were looking at Thanksgiving travel. 

Regardless, I was able to repost the two analyses- one states 2nd cut, the other that doesn’t specify is the first cut according to the growers email. I think either one looks good....I might get some of both. I always retest once it’s in my possession anyway. After reading Lavinia’s response I realize I shouldn’t be second guessing myself when someone throws info at me. 

thank you to all trying to help😊
--
Donna and Caz

 

Nov 8, 2016

Chesterfield, NJ

Caz Case History.pdf 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0


Invokana

Amadadelsol@...
 

Thank you for your comments on Invokana, LJ. I'm going to ask my vet today to see if we can try Frigga on it, cost, dosage, etc. I'd appreciate any other feedback from people who have or are using it. Since stopping it almost a week ago I feel like I have my horse back again. Thank you. 
--
Pat and Frigga
Monkton, VT
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252741  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Frigga


Re: Request for hoof evaluation for Cadet

riggslippert@...
 

Thank you so much, Lavinia!  Your hard work is so appreciated!
--
Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102




Re: Request for hoof evaluation for Cadet

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Aunna,

I've added mark-ups to Cadet's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

There are a number of good things already in place with the trim: very little flaring, nice beveling all around, frogs are being allowed to callous, no excessive wall length. However, all the toes are too long horizontally and the heels underrun. HPA on the fronts is good but the hinds are broken back, with ground parallel coffin bones. There is sinking, which is affecting the the sole depth somewhat. Side bone on all four, much more significant in the fronts than the hinds. There also appear to be some arthritic changes (ringbone) on the fronts. Frogs are somewhat narrowed and elongated. The goal is going to be to shorten the toes so as to get the breakover set where the bony column needs it to be and work to get the heels to relax back under the horse to provide more solid support.

LF lateral composite: On the radiograph, the pink line follows the bony column alignment, which is good. It extends down to where the sole depth should be. Because the angle of the view was from slightly below the foot instead of a true lateral, it's a bit difficult to judge the actual sole depth. You shouldn't be able to see the bottom of the foot in a lateral view. Green line follows the angle of the new growth coming in under the coronary band. It runs parallel to the pink line. This is a visual, NOT a trim line. Note that there is a slight amount of laminar wedge present as you get toward the bottom 1/3 of the dorsal wall. Blue line is where the toe needs to be brought back to, blue X is the excess toe length. You can see the marker where the tip of the frog is - the toe at ground level needs to be brought back to about 1/2 way between where it is now and where the tip of the frog is. Orange line shows where the heels should be located. It also runs parallel to the pink line. Red line is where the bottom of the foot and sole depth should be, which is below where it currently ends. That means, NO trimming of the sole. Yellow line #1 runs thru the coronary band, yellow line #2 points to the extensor process. These two lines should overlap, or at least be very close together. The distance between them denotes the amount of sinking.
On the hoof photo, the green line corresponds to the green line on the rad. The blue area corresponds to the blue line and X on the rad = the excess toe length. Orange line is the same as on the rad = where the heels should be. The yellow lines follow some of the horn tubules from top to bottom: they should run parallel to the green and orange lines. Instead, they are much shallower, indicating how much the hoof capsule has run forward.

Here is more info on setting the breakover:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Breakover.html

LF sole: Solid blue line indicates where the outer perimeter of the hoof capsule should meet the ground. Blue hashes indicate where the walls are beveled. In the toe, they correspond to the blue on the lateral views. Soles and frogs need to be left alone. Orange circles are where the heel buttresses need to be crept back to IF there is enough heel height to allow this. Be careful not to lose overall vertical heel height relative to the vertical height in the front half of the foot or the HPA will be negatively impacted. Adding a bevel to the backs of the heels may be all that can be done at this time. See here for more info:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

This will help with determining sole depth:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

RF lateral composite: Same discussion as for the LF. There does seem to be a bit more obvious dishing to this dorsal wall as you move from top to bottom - which is a red flag that the toe length is ahead of where it needs to be.

RF sole: Same as the LF.

LH lateral composite: On the rad, the pink line shows how the bony column should line up. The purple line follows the actual alignment. Note how the purple line dips down and away from the pink line.That's a broken back HPA. This narrows the joint space at the front of the foot and can result in the dorsal edges of P1 and P2 starting to rub when the foot moves. It also keeps the tendons and ligaments in the back of the foot in a constant state of extension, which can result in damage to them over time. Because the coffin bone is already sitting ground parallel, there is definitely NO heel height available to work with to move the heels back further. Any attempt to move them back right now will result in losing critical vertical height as an unwanted consequence. Notice how the coronary band slopes more steeply down toward the heels and how shallow the heel angle is. For now, just ramping the very backs of the heels in their current location, then beveling the outer wall so that the bar-wall junction carries the load, will be necessary to help get the heels to start standing more upright without losing overall vertical height.

LH sole: Same general discussion as the fronts. Note that the lateral wall does have some flare, which can be corrected.

RH lateral composite: Same discussion as the LH but note that the HPA is broken back more, increasing the damaging forces applied.

RH sole: Follow the discussion for the LH.

It may be helpful to use boots behind, with a wedged pad temporarily while the heels are working their way back into a healthier position.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Retesting and Pergolide dosage

LJ Friedman
 


-- or that the correct response isnt shown till january, though things might still be improving
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Retesting and Pergolide dosage

LJ Friedman
 

I thought Dr. kellon mentioned to wait until January because often correct values are not shown during the seasonal rise?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Safe Canadian supplement for a picky boy?

LJ Friedman
 


-- zero side effects with invokana 
its nothing like metformin 
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Safe Canadian supplement for a picky boy?

hdavis
 

Hello Francine!

wow that is cool that you bought his mom from Brandon!  Small world!  Sorry I wasn’t much help with the metformin issue :(


--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Re: Safe Canadian supplement for a picky boy?

lamarleau@...
 

Heather, 
I bought his mom in Brandon 18 yrs ago. 😀 She was in foal and this little monster came into our life.  Long trailer ride to Quebec.  Mom is still here too.

We are testing glucose and insulin friday so if it didn't help will also stop Metformin and see if he will want his supplement.  No problem with hay.

Not easy and not many choices of supplements here.
--
Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy


Re: Hay confusion

Sherry Morse
 

Not going to discuss the hay, but Donna you can go into PA to buy hay.  Not sure where you read that you'd have to stay in PA and quarantine here for 2 weeks - I just checked the NJ guidelines and there's nothing about that in there: https://covid19.nj.gov/faqs/nj-information/travel-and-transportation/are-there-travel-restrictions-to-or-from-new-jersey and PA is not included in the quarantine guidelines:

Travelers and residents returning from any U.S. state or territory beyond the immediate region (New York, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, and Delaware) should self-quarantine at their home, hotel, or other temporary lodging for 14 days.




Re: Retesting and Pergolide dosage

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Angie,

You can retest 3 weeks after reaching the target dose, no need to wait until spring.




Re: Hay confusion

dbellusci
 

Yes going in to PA  I’d have to quarantine 2 weeks in PA unless I had a neg test result in hand, and so would my husband, which we cannot do right now. This was the new advisory as of 11/25. Hubby doesn’t want to risk the  $10,000
fine, though  for good hay I probably would😉. 

Lavinia I’m so sorry that you took the time to look at the analysis but neither one is the right test. The second cut one is something that had been deleted.....not sure why it’s there, and the other doesn’t even look familiar. UGH. But what you are saying at least matches my experiences.....every time I check a batch of second cut it’s fine (for s/s). But the hay sellers always try to discourage me from buying. I didn’t want to argue with this woman, but last time I inquired about her low sugar hay she told me the reason it’s low sugar is because the dry it longer so it’s less green. 
I’ll try to find another way to post each, and if I can’t I’ll just type it out.

Donna and Caz

 

Nov 8, 2016

Chesterfield, NJ

Caz Case History.pdf 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Equifeast

Frances C.
 

Ah! thanks Dr.K.  I think this one really got to you. You saved me from doing an eye-blink test. Got my winter issue of Equus magazine the other day. Included was a glossy brochure on Equifeast. I read down the ingredient list till I came to sugar/starch then tossed it in the trash. Page 5 of magazine is a full page ad for Heiro products including ComfortQuik Hemp - no explanation of how it works. The more something is advertized - the less effective it is except for somebody's bottom line???????
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Hay confusion

celestinefarm
 

Donna, When you say you can't travel over state lines because of lockdowns, can you explain what that means? Are you being asked to quarantine when you return?  I'm asking because it doesn't make any sense. Travel is not banned across any state I am aware of.  Unless there is some kind of major penalty, I would be getting my hay that worked out well.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Hay confusion

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Donna,

Which cut it is doesn't tell you anything regarding vit/mineral content and ESC+starch. It's the fertilizing,growing conditions and timing of the cutting that have the major impact on how the hay turns out. Need to test to actually know what you have. I have tested 2nd cut hay for 15+ years now and only once has the ESC+starch been an issue as it came in at about 12%, which is higher than acceptable for an IR horse but certainly not "very high" in sugar.

I only see one full analysis - for the 2nd cut hay - in your album. The other analysis is only the moisture content and iron. The iron content in that sample is very high, so I'd pass on it anyway.

The full analysis was done by NIR testing, which isn't as accurate as wet chem but the ESC+starch is 5.7% - which is really nice. Even if the actual is higher, it is still likely to be within safe levels. Iron and manganese are high so it would need significant amounts of copper+zinc to balance. Shaking/rinsing (not soaking) the hay would likely lower that amount but you would then need to retest a rinsed  sample to see what the actual result is plus commit to shaking/rinsing all of it before feeding.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Important - Equifeast and any other supplement making disease claims

Carlynne Allbee
 

Good point.  I am a strong believer in reporting to the government, for example scam phone calls to the FCC.  They may not be able to act on individual cases, but when they get several for the same source, they see a pattern and more likely to be able to act.

Thank you for this,

Carlynne Allbee



On Sunday, November 29, 2020, 08:37:22 AM PST, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:


If you have used any supplement that claims to be beneficial for PPID or IR and had your  horse worsen during its use, you can report this to the FDA at:

https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/ReportaProblem/ucm055305.htm

It is already illegal for any supplement to carry claims it can modify, cure or prevent any disease but the FDA has limited resources to enforce that. Adverse event reported, including worsening during use, may be taken more seriously.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Important - Equifeast and any other supplement making disease claims

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

As an aside here, if you go to the UK or AU web sites you won't find any mention of treating PPID, EMS or laminitis. Their regulatory bodies review claims closely.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Important - Equifeast and any other supplement making disease claims

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 From the blog I linked:

  • Any criticism or questions labeled persecution, conspiracy or close-mindedness
  • Claims of unique insight, ingredients or methodology
  • Instead of showing solid proof, challenges others to prove the claim is wrong – basically unproven as false = true (when the reality is unproven = unproven; nothing more and nothing less).  This is known as a reverse burden of proof.  In actuality, the proof of a claim should rest squarely with the person making it.

If they would like some horse based science, send them my way.......

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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