Date   

Joint Supplement

Donna
 

As we are working on switching so many things for our horse(s) - only one with Cushing's, the other 2 are babies - we are needing to find a good joint support replacement for Monte. He has currently been on Cosequine ASU, vet recommended, but he has decided he will no longer eat anything with it in it. It has been work to get just a portion of it into him since he has become resistant, but he needs a good replacement for his muscle/joint stiffness from age. The one that I've currently been looking at is Tight Joints Plus. Here is a link to their site if you need it: https://www.tightjointsplus.net/horse-arthritis-treatment-and-joint-repair-auburn-wa-html/ . Thank you for some insight into this area. 
--
Donna R Conley - in Oregon, Columbia County, USA since 12-01-2020
Montes Case History.pdf (groups.io)


Re: Gas colic remedies or preventstives

LJ Friedman
 

many different doses of gas x  ..  80 mg, 125 mg, 180 mg, 250 mg.   correct mg for typical 500 kg horse?  thanks  
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Gas colic remedies or preventstives

LJ Friedman
 

Thank you for commenting on the gas colic. I know my vet suggest Banamine  and walking. Do you suggest the Gas-X tablets in addition to banamine ? dont use the banamine?? Thanks
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Use of Palmitoylethanolamide(PEA) for pain management

LJ Friedman
 

Why no boots at night? I had my horse on boots 24 seven with a one hour  to 2 hr break.each day 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Case Histories: What You Need To Know - Fri, 12/04/2020 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Case Histories: What You Need To Know

When:
Friday, 4 December 2020

Description:

Your equine's Case History is the most important step to be completed upon joining the ECIR Group. It is critical for obtaining timely and specific advice from the support team.   

 

If you are a long time member, migrated from Yahoo, please be aware there are changes in how information is to be properly posted.  We also have a new case history form. If your case history does not contain the IR Calculator Table please transfer all your information on to the new form. The new uploading rules and instructions are located at the bottom of the case history form

 

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members. To help protect the data and your privacy only members of the main ECIR Group are granted access to the Case History Group.  If you are concerned about privacy you need only give your first name and general location.  The use of pseudonyms to keep your equine professionals anonymous is encouraged. Please review the ECIR Group Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

 

Don't delay posting or updating your case history. 

Missing information it can be added as you obtain it. The faster your case history is completed with what you currently know, the faster you will receive the best support from the support team. 

 

Please take the time to update your Case History.  An up-to-date case history is invaluable when an equine emergency crops up. Accurate documentation of management changes, the equine's responses, blood work results and links to the equine's photo album not only helps the ECIR Group gain the trust and respect of science-based equine professionals but can be used by vets who are on the ground trying to help your horse. Your Case History is the best way to effectively monitor and illustrate the results in PPID and IR management changes. 

 

Please leave all your information uploaded. When the time comes that you or your equine no longer need the advice of the ECIR Group, please leave your case history folder intact. Your information will be used in the future to confirm or re-shape ECIR protocols and help other members learn.  This is the best way to “give back” to the ECIR for the help you and your horse have received. 

 

Photos go in the Case History Photo Section.  Please help the Support Team work as efficiently as possible. Read How to Make a Photo Album for the rules and follow the Naming Pattern for photos so the Support Team can quickly locate the photos they need to see.  

 

Thank you for your cooperation, 

The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group

 


Re: Jiaogulan - What if It's not Working?

Allison
 


Re: Invokana is working for Finn and Elliott!!!!!

hdavis
 

Great news!  It is a relief for sure having something that is working as so stressful when we are doing everything else and their insulin stays high. Wonderful news for u and the ponies!!!
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Shoe vs Barefoot

Jen Stern
 

Could someone point me to info on shoes vs. barefoot?  I’m considering transitioning my horse to barefoot, as she is currently recovering from some muscle injury, and once she is better will be retired from Dressage and become my trail horse.  She is NOT laminitic.  Looking for reliable info on how to transition her to barefoot and if she would benefit from it.
Thank you in advance! :)
--
Jen S. NY 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jen%20and%20Deva

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243352


Re: Jiaogulan - What if It's not Working?

 

Allison, I have not given jiaogulan before but, from my reading here, I think it is dosed by what is required to get an increase in gum color.  That would be indicative of increased blood flow.  It’s possible though that you were told differently for a reason.
As they explain on the joint supplement web page, chondroitin is the most expensive ingredient and most crucial for repair.  If you began using that in concert with the other things Dr. Kellon listed then it seems like you could try decreasing the chondroitin as his recovery shows obvious progress.  
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Use of Palmitoylethanolamide(PEA) for pain management

Jeanne Q
 

Day 7 update on PEA treatment with Glory.
I have been dosing the 3g in the evenings with her feed.  The last couple of mornings she has moved out much better than she has been.  However, by late afternoon she is back to the tiny mincing steps when I know she is in pain.  She is without boots in a padded stall for the night.  In boots and cushy pads during the day, turned out in a dry lot with shavings.
Dr. Kellon, have you read anything about dividing the dosage am and pm?  The equine studies I have read only dose once in the pm.  Should I try a divided dose?
Thank you
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


Re: Jiaogulan - What if It's not Working?

Allison
 

Dr. Kellon, if I may ask you two more questions...

First regarding Jiaogulan...should I increase the dosage, stay where we are at, or decrease?

Secondly...The joint support that you are recommending... will this be something he will always need, or is this just for rehab purposes? I realize this is the gold standard for joint support, but I'm not sure I can sustain the cost of that particular recommendation, long term. What is the most important ingredient(s) to consider? If he's going to need joint support for the rest of his life, I need to find a more affordable alternative.

Thanks,--
Allison in Ontario 2020

Sonseeahray Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Sonseeahray
Keegan Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Allison%20and%20Keegan
Keegan XRays and Hooves Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=255699&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Re: Magnesium supplementing

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I see that Masterfeeds considers an NSC of <20% to be "low". 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://madbarn.com/feeds/vtm-20-pellet-masfterfeeds/&ved=2ahUKEwieto7_xbLtAhV4ITQIHVF1AhcQFjACegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw0QmoeNe7Lp_oD6aVT7dmYK
That could be dangerously high for an EMS horse if the ESC and/or starch portion of it is high...unfortunately you don't know how high those are when sugar is reported as "NSC".

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Magnesium supplementing

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Hi Kandace,

You mentioned K developed laminitis while eating the "Hallets" hay, but was she also on pasture at that time?  All of your hay analyses fall into our 'safe for most EMS horses' cut-off of <10% ESC+starch (as fed/sampled column).  It is more likely for the variable and daily to hourly fluctuating sugars in pasture to trigger laminitis.  However, some horses do need a cut-off of <7% ESC+starch, although I think I'd K was one of those horses you would have seen laminitis much sooner, like shortly after she stopped getting heavy exercise.

All of your hays would be safe to feed unsoaked to most EMS horses, but mixing your "Hallets" hay (highest ESC+ starch) with the other 2 will reduce K's sugar intake a little bit.  If she is still really sore(???) then either: the cause of the laminitis has not been eliminated and I would continue to soak hay if you can (or feed her one of the Blackwell hays only for now), or her trim needs corrections to reduce pressure on her damaged laminae.  If she is feeling better, you could see how she does with unsoaked hay, but watch carefully for any signs if increased hoof pain, heat or digital pulses.  Insulin does go up with cold weather so stopping soaking when it gets cold is the worst time!  But I know if you don't have indoor soaking facilities and a barn to feed soaked hay in, it can be extremely challenging to continue soaking in our cold winters!  Again, your hay should be safe to feed unsoaked...but proceed with caution, especially if she was not getting grass when her laminitis occurred.

All of your hays should be supplemented with protein and, yes, magnesium.  Your "Blackwell Tim 4" hay analysis is the only one with trace element numbers and it has more than adequate iron in it already, but all hays need copper and zinc.  The Masterfeed Front Runner minerals are adding to the magnesium deficiency because it is high in calcium.  It also adds iron, which exagerates the copper and zinc deficiencies.  The Masterfeed VTM 30 is probably helping with the low protein in your hay, but it needs to be fed in higher amounts than the Front Runner to get the same amount of minerals.  There is no iron number given for the VTM30 but it is in there, too, in an unknown quantity. Also concerning is that there are no numbers for ESC and starch (or even NSC) for the VTM 30, so I definitely would not feed it to K without knowing for sure that it is low ESC and starch.  The manufacturer can probably provide those numbers, don't just take their word that it is "safe".  It can take very little to trigger and prolong laminitis.

The exact amounts of what to supplement should be determined by a hay balancer that is aware of K's EMS and can make safe recommendations.  Since you have a year's worth of "Hallet" hay to feed, I personally would core it and have it re-analyzed.  Nutrilytical in Calgary will rent you a hay probe (for the cost of shipping it to you I think), and they will process the sample, too.  You could ask for the "603" equine package, or to save some money and because you have a nearly complete analysis already you can get just the "10 mineral pack", which will give you the trace elements you are missing.  You can find a list of our approved balancers here:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/HAY%20BALANCING.pdf

Mad Barn (Canadian company) will do a granular/powdered custom supplement for a reasonable cost, although their minimum order is equivalent to about 10 months of hay.  They also have a pelleted supplement called Amino Trace+ that they developed with input from Dr Kellon, and it does a good job of balancing most Canadian hays (although how well it balances yours, and in what amount it should be fed, needs to be evaluated by a professional).

I hope that helps!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Invokana is working for Finn and Elliott!!!!!

TERRI JENNINGS
 

Hi All,
I’m on cloud 9 with our new insulin data for Finn and Elliott. After 6 weeks on Invokana Elliott dropped to 57 from 103.  Finn was a little slower to respond but is now at 66 after 10 weeks (down from 99 6 weeks ago). We started at greater than 200. I know we aren’t “within normal limits” but they are at much less risk. For the first time on this journey I feel like I’ll be able to manage them for a long life. 


I will get their case histories updated ASAP. I just couldn’t wait to share the good news. Thanks to everyone for all I’ve learned and especially Dr. K. 
--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Re: FREE FECAL WATER SYNDROME - also WAS: Dr. K Blog On Hay Belly - Could Relevante Have This?

DawnC
 

Just to note, even though my mare has lost weight she still looks as if she is going to foal in a month.

Thank you,
Dawn & Roma
Middletown, DE
August 2011


Re: FREE FECAL WATER SYNDROME - also WAS: Dr. K Blog On Hay Belly - Could Relevante Have This?

DawnC
 

WOW Dawn, thank you for the heads up about Pro Elite!!! That is really disturbing to hear. I had my regular vet out yesterday(not repro) and she could not believe the way my mare looked. She said she went from a the picture of an  IR horse (cresty, fat pads, etc) to a completely unrecognizable as being the same horse! She drew some blood and we will wait to see what is going on. My vet said to wean the foal, continue with the Absorb All and psyllium but also suggested that after results from blood to rethink my feeding program. She really could not believe the amount of weight she lost & said my mare looked similar to a person who has reversed their type 2 diabetes but not in a good way. 

Thank you,
Dawn & Roma
Middletown, DE
August 2011


Re: Ready to start Jiaogulan just following and see no answer to the questions. Thank you.

Rose Miller <Rosemiller@...>
 

yes, thanks a lot.

--
Rose Miller in Arizona 2020


Re: Hay confusion

dbellusci
 

Thank you, that is sweet-I wish you could too! I never saw a problem with second cut when I tested it in the past. I think maybe the growers just try to steer me away from it because they need more 1st cut customers, and they have steady customers that are promised the 2nd cut. But I’d gladly become a steady customer if someone would let me!
--
Donna and Caz

 

Nov 8, 2016

Chesterfield, NJ

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Donna%20and%20Caz

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3907

 


Re: Ready to start Jiaogulan just following and see no answer to the questions. Thank you.

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Rose
I think in a previous thread you asked about the potential for interaction between jiaogulan and other drugs? There is some information in this document in our Files: 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Jiaogulan,%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support,%20AAKG%20and%20Supps/Jiaogulan%20Doses%20and%20Precautions.pdf
This document states: "Jiaogulan, like any herb with the potential to alter the way the body functions, is a drug. There is the potential for a horse getting Jiaogulan to have an exaggerated reaction to drugs which lower blood pressure, such as tranquilizers/sedatives or general anesthetics, and drugs or herbs which influence blood clotting."

If your horse is getting sedation for dental work, for example, it might be wise to stop the jiaogulan a day or so before the sedation is scheduled. But also I would check with your vet each time, as there are many different sedatives and tranquilizers used with horses, with a variation in their mechanism and effects. 
I would also tend not to use other herbs with jiaogulan that are not recommended here. 

 


Regarding the use of jiaogulan with NSAIDs, in the previous thread Dr Kellon confirmed your comment that the NSAIDs would cancel out the benefit of jiaogulan. I have given previcox (Equiox) to my horse as an emergency anti-inflammatory even though she gets jiaogulan in her feed (with vet approval), but I miss the jiaogulan in the next feeds until 24 hours after the last previcox. 

Does this answer your question? 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Welcome Kim- formally re:important

Trisha DePietro
 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing Hi Kim. Here is  Lorna's link in case you didn't see it in the other email thread...
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder

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