Date   

Metformin before Invokana?

Nancy Kitchen
 

There is a possibility that I will have a second horse that will need either Metformin or Invokana to lower insulin.  I am awaiting blood results;  He is PPID/IR and we had it under control with diet,  but his mincing steps on hard ground made me suspect so vet drew bloods.  I believe Tucky's ch is uploaded correctly.
My question is, if we decide to try medication to control insulin, do we need to use Metformin first?  Or could we start with the Invokana first?  I can't seem to find the answer in the search.
Thank you
--
Nancy K
Smoke and Tucky
November 2018, Southeast, MA

Smoke Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Smoke
Smoke Photo Album:    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94122
Tucky Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Tuck 
Tucky Photo Album:


Re: Mild laminitis after dental

Joy V
 

Hi Cass,  

I'll be getting him tested again in the spring but you could be right.  Although, his PPID was so low at his recheck I do think it was controlled during the rise.  The IR however is a different story.  But the last time I had him tested I hadn't been able to get him on tested hay yet.  Since he's been on tested hay, he has been doing better and better lameness wise and all his symptoms had resolved.  I will ask my vet for 2 separate samples so 1 set can be sent to Davis.  He is resistant to sending them there, but I'm sure he will if I pay for it ...  

For this float, the vet used a support and did release the speculum 3 times during the float.  Willie had no ulcerations, and his mouth was in pretty good shape, so the float was quick, about 15 minutes.  And yes, Willie was over drugged, poor guy.  It took about an hour to get him from the big barn on the property back to his paddock.  It's about a 5 minute walk normally.

Thank you for weighing in Cass, I have a lot to consider and think about. 


Willie was looking better last night.  I did not dose with Banamine.  I'll see how much he used his shavings pile when I check the game cam this morning.  On a fantastic note, the tenant at the barn who liked to sneak feed Willie sugary snacks has been evicted and is off the property.  So glad about that.

Thank you all for your suggestions and thought provoking questions.  I'm so grateful for this group!


--
Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Re: Mild laminitis after dental

Joy V
 

Thank you Trisha, I am going to the links now.  I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and get me those links!


--
Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Re: Overlapping supplements?

Lorna Cane
 

The archives came up with this,from one of the principals of the company.Many more messages there,Ferne.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/245239?p=,,,100,0,0,0::Created,,WIRX,100,2,0,68802723


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Overlapping supplements?

Lorna Cane
 


Concern over hoof Bulge

deb@...
 

I am concerned over this bulge in the new hoof growth on Kodys front left. It's on the lateral wall at the coronet band. It extends about 20mm. The rest of the hoof has a flat connection.  I have uploaded a photo in my photo album.

I am also still concerned that I am feeding the wrong thing. I thought I was feeding as per the guidelines but Candace Piraino stated his diet needs an overhaul but I have no idea what needs to change. I've been stressing for the last couple of days not knowing what I'm doing wrong and despite asking I have had no other feedback. I appreciate all help and understand that people are busy but I am stressed to the max trying to work out what is right and what is wrong as I have had so much conflicting information and I'm trying to get it right. If people have the time to tell me I'm doing something wrong, I would really appreciate it if they could perhaps take a minute to tell me what is wrong about it and what I need to fix.

Thank you all so much for your feedback. Deb
--
Debbie Rainbow
Western Australia
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Debbie%20and%20Kody
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259494


Re: Flea on Invokana

Jennifer Murphy
 

LJ, my vet and I are sharing the results with a pharmaceutical company, and in exchange they're paying for the blood work.  They have a specific schedule that they want us to follow.  It was supposed to be 24 hrs. before the first dose, 24 hrs after the first dose, then 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, etc. but Cornell spun a sample they weren't supposed to on the 24 hrs post dosage, so we had to pull a 3rd sample. 

Nancy, thank you for that.  I'm hoping we'll see results soon.  :) 
--
Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Re: Overlapping supplements?

ferne fedeli
 

What is WIRX?  I Googled & got a radio station, pharmacy, etc.

--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


Re: New member. Sore pony

Charmyn
 

Hello,
ok, so I won’t feed the pro-fibre crunch.  
I’m curious why tumeric is not recommended?  It is It is such a great anti-inflammatory and pain killer.  

I don’t know what to feed him right now. 


 I am waiting for the hay test results to come back on my hay and southern hay.  I have raked up all the straw.  I am feeding him soaked and rinsed beet pulp.  I would have to move him in order to be able to soak his hay, but then I couldn’t be there to feed him.  Soaking hay uses up our very limited water for my entire family (we just recently got running water, we use to live off of blue jugs).  Once summer is here we can use rain water and it would be possible to soak hay.  


If it needs to be 10c to test him then we will have to wait until May to test him.  I can ask my vet.  Can we just take him inside, where it is warmer, for a period of time to get the test?  Right now it’s -20c. 

It is re-occurring laminitis, but since I got him a year ago he has been fine living on our hay in his diet/grass-less pen with his buddy.  

where would I upload the pictures to? 


thanks,

--
Charmyn 
Yukon, Canada
joined Jan 2021


Re: Emergency Help for Horse with EMS, Trimming

Laurie
 


--
- Laurie and Rio
Cloquet Minnesota
February 2017

Case history - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Rio 

Rio's Photo Album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=79114


Re: Mild laminitis after dental

 

Joy, you're right that banamine isn't going help Willie's laminitis, and I suspect that it may counter the beneficial effects of the cannabis, or that's the theory with humans. One thing that comes to mind is that Willie's EMS and PPID aren't well-controlled. As a result, the insulin spike following sedation might have had a greater effect. Another possibility is that Willie's EMS and PPID weren't well-controlled during the seasonal rise and you're seeing the delayed effects independent of the dental float. This happened to me a couple of times, with a higher ACTH in January than in late October. Very frustrating. I note that you're using Loomis Vet's diagnostics, and the assay used for PPID is different from the one used by Cornell. It might be time to get comparable blood work results from Cornell. I once sent blood samples to both UCDavis and to Cornell from the same blood draw. Results were within the normal range at UCDavis, outside the reference range for ACTH at Cornell.

My experience with dental floats doesn't match the generalizations. Not doing dentals because of the pandemic lead one of my mares to have lacerations inside her cheeks from lack of care. I know Dr Kellon advocates a sedation-free float with hand tools, but my experience with a skilled equine dentist has been excellent since 2013. She uses minimal sedation with power tools. I've never had a horse bleed or have a sore mouth for a minute after a float. My mares are ready for the next meal. The veterinarian who administers sedation uses less sedation on my 1150 pound Paint (an admitted light-weight) than poor Willie had. She supports the horse's head while the horse has the speculum in its mouth, and she releases the speculum at least twice during the float, which takes 15 - 20 minutes total for each horse. Most of the time is spent staging. Skill and finesse go a long way. My three EMS mares never had adverse reactions to sedation, but it's done with a light touch. 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Mild laminitis after dental

Trisha DePietro
 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Pain%20Relief%20Alternatives%20to%20Bute%20and%20Banamine.pdf- This link should bring you to alternatives to using Banamine for discomfort/pain. Hope this helps.
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: Mild laminitis after dental

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Joy.  I added two really good resources regarding general information about horse teeth, which included a discussion about TMJ. Also the next link are the meds to avoid for procedures. I am not sure what the Det and Torb stand for but the Ace is acepromozine... https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Dental%20Care/THM%205,%209%2010.pdf, 
-- https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here/3.%20Avoid%20These%20Items.pdf
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: LAVINIA: Hoof Evaluation 1st time and UPDATE/HELP

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tamara,

Sorry this is so backed up but I do have you and Malik on the list.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Mild laminitis after dental

Joy V
 

It might LJ, but he does have pretty severe TMJ (and possible THO - I can't afford the ultrasound & hauling to/from the hospital for definitive dx right now) so his jaw is most likely sore from the speculum.  I did email my vet again with an update and to get his take.  I will ask him about that possibility, although because he did the float he may not think there is an issue. 

He looked more improved this evening, and while I was there, did a run down his paddock with a half buck for good measure.  I think it's along the lines of what Bobbie said about it taking a week for them to recover from it.  I notice each year, it takes him longer to bounce back.   
 
--
Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Re: Metformin-When do you figure out if enough is enough.

TERRI JENNINGS
 

Hi Kandace,
I still have stains on multiple barn shirts from cocosoya oil I used as a carrier for Finn and Elliott. I even had a huge flare up of carpal tunnel from grinding so many pills. I was kind of happy when it stopped working but I did know that it was likely that my vet would get on board with prescribing Invokana.  Teeny was happy to eat her metformin in her hay soup and it did continue to work for her right up to her end but I know that is not what typically happens. Is your vet willing to try invokana if the metformin stops working?  I remember scheduling bloodwork to prove to my vet that it wasn’t working.  I was kind of  hoping it had stopped so we could be done with metformin.  After a few months on invokana my metformin days seem so long ago.  

--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


Re: Mild laminitis after dental

Joy V
 

Thank you Bobbie.  I think they do do it that way because they can do more horses in the visit.  


--
Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)
Nevada County, CA - 2019

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Re: Do PPID horses get constipated or is this age related gut issues or sand colic?

 

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 04:40 PM, Stepht wrote:
I am wondering about daily psyllium because I read Dr. Kellon's Horse Sense blog about digestive issues in senior horses where she says that adding psyllium to every meal is helpful for swallowing and is also a prebiotic. Article here:   https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com.   I was thinking that once I did a 7 day "purge" with psyllium that there may be a smaller maintenance/preventative dose given on a daily basis that older horses would benefit from
Hi, Stephanie. 
Does Katie have chewing problems? Colic vs difficulty chewing are different applications for psyllium. Dr Kellon's article addresses the older horse with chewing and swallowing issues. I read your long case history and see she's been on ODTBC for a long time. I don't see a current ACTH for Katie. Uncontrolled ACTH can cause muscle wasting, and that muscle wasting can cause diminished ability to chew. If she were mine, I'd want to know if her PPID is under control.

I have to leave the problem of eating shavings to others because I don't know much about it except it suggests she might not be getting enough chew time. I do all my feeding in 40 gallon Tuff Stuff bins to keep feed off the ground https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/tuff-stuff-products-heavy-duty-oval-stock-tank-40-gal

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Overlapping supplements?

taskerudet
 

Hi Francine,

I used Metformin for several months and insulin kept increasing regardless of increased dosage. 
-- I stopped the Metformin and started WIRX with a significant decrease in insulin. The Cornell test results are in the case history. I do provide the group updated results when new tests are done but the decrease in insulin is routinely attributed to other factors like pergolide dose (same for more months than use of WIRX), diet ( not changed) and anything else to seemingly discredit the product. I appreciate this group tremendously and adhere to all the principles but do not understand the reluctance to consider this product as possibly useful.  Just my opinion. So far, the numbers show it is working for my Crackers.

Ellen
July 2011, Goldendale, WA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ellen%20and%20Crackers
Crackers' Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1645


Re: Metformin-When do you figure out if enough is enough.

 

Kandace, another factor which could elevate insulin is uncontrolled PPID.  Your last testing for ACTH was Dec ‘20 (you may want to check the date as you have ‘21 entered) was mostly out of the rise but still well above normal.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

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