Date   

Devil’s Claw and Equine Canada

hdavis
 

Hello,
I am looking at using Devil’s Claw possibly as an alternative pain med for my horse with stifle arthritis and was wondering if anyone knows if it is a banned substance or if you can compete on it in equine Canada shows.  I cam use previcox and show on it but wondered about trying Devil’s Claw to manage his pain when at shows if needed.    Any ideas? 


Thanks in advance.
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Re: Weaning off thyro-l

Suzy Berkowitz
 

Yes. Thank you


--
Suzy in Fl 2020


Re: Weaning off thyro-l

Suzy Berkowitz
 

Thank you. I will follow that schedule unless I hear otherwise


--
Suzy in Fl 2020


Re: Flax and iron ?

 

High iron was not been confirmed by my analysis of stabilized ground flax. Iron was only 48 ppm as fed, 52 ppm as DM.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/Triple%20Crown%20Products/Triple%20Crown%20Flax%202017-06-20.pdf
That was only one bag, so it doesn't mean much.

Iron content of linseed meal shown at Equi-Analytical is considerably higher, with a large range from 0 to 777.8 ppm as Dry Matter. The average is 286.5 ppm iron as DM. So if you feed 100 grams, you add..... only 28.65 mg of iron. That is a small fraction compared to the 980 mg of iron in 18 pounds of my hay.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Moving forward diet, supplement and medication advice

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Good idea.  With the high insulin, even if it is just due to cold temperatures, doing everything you can do reduce it by tightening up the diet is wise.  I'd be surprised if that high of an insulin was just due to cold weather though.  Are you planning to retest insulin now that her hay is being soaked to see if it has come down?

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Mare swollen like a balloon

 

Hi, Cyd.
There are several analyses of Standlee Timothy Pellets in our File of Analyses of Various Feeds (a great resource). Here's the Folder:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/Standlee%20Products
Only one analysis shows rather high ESC (within the safe range but at the higher end), and that was an August mill run. You can see the date of the mill run on each bag, IIRC, right before the bag number. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Initial Case History Posted

Candice Piraino
 

Hello Pam!

Welcome to the group! 

Quick peek at your case history shows me that his age can be the contributing factor even though last year he might have seemed "fine", but he is now older. 

Also, I would highly recommend you ditch the alfalfa. Some horses are just sensitive to it and get foot sore. I will also recommend you replace Remission with a better vitamin/mineral blend. There are several that are available for purchase online such as Vermont Blend and Uckele U-Balance. Remission in my opinion very expensive magnesium, where you can purchase elsewhere at a better bang for your buck. You can check out Uckele's magnesium which is excellent! Your horse would most likely do very well with a diet overhaul, by following the diet listed below. 

Also, if on pasture, we recommend a muzzle, especially if he is having issues losing weight due to no movement and imbalanced diet. ThyroL is not a long term solution, and it should only be used to jump start weight loss. It doesn't work for all horses, unfortunately. If you do decide to take him off of it, ensure you do it very slowly! It can create havoc on his system. 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @ www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: Initial Case History Posted

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Ps.  it is overwhelming at first, but it gets easier.  Just focus on one thing at a time and keep breathing.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Initial Case History Posted

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Pam,

You will receive a welcome letter soon with lots of reading and information!  For now though, could you add this link to your Case History folder to your auto-signature?
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pam%20and%20Kinzu

To answer your question, I don't see why you couldn't use Word for Mac if you want to fill out the form in .doc format.  There is a link to the .doc version in the email on Case History instructions, along with a few other helpful links.

Also, please create a photo album in the Case History Group (and add the link to your auto-signature, too), and then you can upload image files, like Kinzu's radiographs, body condition and/or trim photos for feedback.

For now it's hard to know without further info if he is/was sore because of the trim, because of his diet, or because of cold temperatures.

When you can, adding the information on your hay and bloodwork to your Case History will be really helpful.  At a first pass, I would stop the alfalfa-timothy pellets (alfalfa can be a laminitis trigger for SOME horses, and I don't think any brands of timothy and alfalfa pellets are guaranteed to be <10% ESC+starch), especially as he is gaining weight and does not need the extra calories.  To lose weight he should be eating 2% of ideal weight, or 1.5% of current weight, whichever is higher.  This requires weighing hay and not free-feeding.  Also recommend soaking his hay 1 hour in cold water (or 30 min in hot water) if he is still showing signs of tenderness.  I know both of these are hard in a boarding situation, especially if horses are turned put together, but electric strings/tape on t-posts can be used to make a second paddock within a paddock so horses can be next to each other but physically separated from each other's food.  If you can get the hay tested and it comes back with low ESC and starch then you probably don't need to soak it.  But limiting his intake is part of keeping these horses healthy.

He is middle age now and you are going to have to be more careful as he gets older...think of the 2020 laminitis as a warning for worse to come if changes to his management are not made (he is a Morgan after all, one of the "poster-breeds" for EMS/IR).  Starting thinking now of how you can modify his boarding setup, keep him off summer pasture, and where to get tested low sugar grass hay next year to prevent more laminitis attacks and keep him sound into old age.  Getting him back into exercise and keeping him moving is also very important, once he is sound again.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Mare swollen like a balloon

Lorismorgans
 

I also had much better results with the teff pellets for all three of my boys. I had noticeably increase in Crest and swollwn sheath on the Timothy pellets.
Just throwing in my two cents.

Lori

--
Lori, Abel, Bodie & Dusty

2016

Redding, CA

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lori%20and%20Able%20-%20Bodie%20-%20Dusty

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6053&p=Name,,,50,2,0,0 .


Re: Weaning off thyro-l

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Suzy, did you see Sherry's message above suggesting a modified taper?

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/261512

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Weaning off thyro-l

Suzy Berkowitz
 

He has only been on it for 2 weeks. It will take 6 weeks to wean him off? That seems like a long time
--
Suzy in Fl 2020


Re: Flax and iron ?

Bobbie Day
 

Thanks Nancy
That helps a lot.

--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Initial Case History Posted

pamela.white@...
 

Hello, I just uploaded a very incomplete case history. I'll try to fill in the blanks and update this later this week. Basically, KInzu had a brief episode of laminitis in thew spring. His bloodwork showed insulin resistance and although the lameness resolved quickly the physical signs - cresty neck, fat pads, were not resolving. He was started on low-dose metformin, still didn't change clinically, so the metformin was increased. In November he moved to his winter barn and was fine for the first five weeks, but became lame after a delayed trim. (The hay and pasture is also different but he goes there every year for 6 months.) Unlike this time, although he has improved somewhat his gait is still awkward. For the past three weeks we've had freezing temperatures and 20 inches of snow on the ground, making things like soaking hay and wearing boots difficult if not impossible. He does have free hay during the day because he's out with another horse - it's not my barn and we're manipulating things as best we can. (I'm working on changing this, but there are limitations at the barn.) He'll be x-rayed again next week and trimmed the following. He is barefoot; I've been told glue on shoes might be a help. He's a fussy eater and very syringe-phobic so finding supplements he'll eat and making sure he gets his prescribed meds has been incredibly challenging. (Although I'm not at all sure the meds are helping - I think he's actually gaining a little weight even on Thyro-L becaasue he's getting virtually no exercise.) After the spring, I thought we had things under control. Clearly, this is not the case and I'm feeling very overwhelmed. 
--
Pam W in NY 2021


Re: Flax and iron ?

Nancy C
 

Two more links

Dr Kellon on Phytic acid - https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/132291
and
Comparison of commonly used seeds including Sunflowers, Chia, Hemp, Rice Bran and Flax
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Omega%203%20and%20Omega%206/FlaxBOSSpeasCHIAhemp.pdf

The amount of iron flax is contributing to the overall diet is minimal.  Balancing the hay, avoid supplements that have added iron are the two best ways to address dietary overload. Dietary overload is different from Iron Overload on a tissue level. This source sites 2.7 mg per 100 grams. The .pdf sited above lists 3.2 mg per the 2 ounces typically recommended here.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4375225/

Mineral absorbtion and Phytic acid has been studied in humans and is thought to block some however, horses are different as Dr Kellon points out in the above link.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Weaning off thyro-l

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Suzy,

If he was only it for 10 days I would do the once a day for 5 days and then cut that in half for another 5 days and then stop it unless Dr. Kellon offers a different opinion on that. The schedule Kirsten outlined was for a horse that was on it long term.



Re: Weaning off thyro-l

Suzy Berkowitz
 

Scout had only been on the thyrol-l for 10 days when I cut the dose to once daily. Did his thyroid stop working already? I thought maybe the 6 week schedule would be for horses on it long term. I don’t want to continue it if it hasn’t kicked in yet and I can safely stop


--
Suzy in Fl 2020


Re: Flax and iron ?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Louise,

Have you had your horses tested for IR or PPID?  Runny eyes and sensitivity to touch can both be signs of issues with both of those conditions.  Also, did you see this message from Dr. Kellon the last time you brought up the amount of iron in beet pulp? https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/260597.  You can also see a further message from Dr. Kellon regarding what happens to the iron level in beet pulp when it's rinsed/soaked/rinsed as we recommend here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/258200




Re: Flax and iron ?

Bobbie Day
 

Wow Louise
Sounds like a journey, but this doesn’t look familiar to me. I don’t think it was your group but thanks !
I have taken Dr.K’s classes and honestly I have never thought of flax and iron.


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: ECIR Group 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference -- This is it!

Maxine McArthur
 

Woohoo!! I can actually GO this time! Happy dance.
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

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