Date   

Re: New Hay - results. Does his current diet align to this new hay well enough?

Laura and Ero
 

Thanks everyone! I've signed up for the Grad course and also the March NRC+ (to audit) again. Take 2 (or 3 ...)

@Martha/Lorna - I've also reached out to Dr. K to see if she has advice or adjustments from her first recommendation. Good to know about Uckele as well. I've purchased several products from them (per Dr K) so maybe that's another avenue to try for now. Thanks!

@Cass: Noted on ground flax - can increase him to a cup again. I was initially weighing every serving, but felt that I got it down to a 1/2 or 1 cup (for ease of prepping). I'll revisit this again as well. It's listed above and on my CH (page 4) that he's already eating 1/2 C Stabul 1 (although it's barely noticeable with all of the powder.) Frankly, Ero doesn't seem to need a carrier and I'm really trying to stay diligent about his weight/extra calories. High leptin and he will eat pretty much anything (except moldy hay, thankfully). It's just A LOT of powder. I board and prep his food, but I'm not there to feed in person. :/

Out of curiosity, advice or a link on where to purchase soy hull pellets should I need something in the future?

Appreciate the fast feedback everyone. 

--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album


Re: New Hay - results. Does his current diet align to this new hay well enough?

ferne fedeli
 

As Cass says, the best way to learn about the balancing is by doing it.  I worked with one of the balancers for the first several times I did the balancing.  I would work through it and then send her a copy of my spreadsheet to double-check for me.  I usually did just fine (it sometimes took me AGES to do!) and finally she said, and I agreed, that I was doing okay on my own, but I could always check back with her if I found something unusual or had a question.
--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Triple Crown Timothy Hay Cubes as complete diet

Suzy Berkowitz
 

I saw a post about feeding the cubes as a complete diet. Please help me in what items and in what quantity I need to do this. Thank you
--
Suzy in Fl 2020


Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

Nancy Kitchen
 

Just adding my two cents worth from our history, my horse seems to be sore when off the Prascend altho his blood work indicates that he is not PPID.  I did not have the stim test done but I have chosen to leave him on the .50 mg of Prascend.  The convincing factor was Alicia Harlov's podcast with Dr Debra Taylor titled Not All Laminitis is Created Equal.  It is well worth the listen for anyone dealing with laminitis.  She describes a horse she treated for multiple bouts of laminitis with no known cause...  upon necropsy they found a pituitary tumor indicating PPID but yet his tests never showed any trace of PPID.
Altho my horse's insulin is up right now, and I am working diligently to get it down, he is on Invokana and Prascend and very comfortable in Clouds...
I hope that helps you in some small way....  
--
Nancy K
Smoke and Tucky
November 2018, Southeast, MA

Smoke Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Smoke
Smoke Photo Album:    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94122
Tucky Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Tuck 
Tucky Photo Album:


Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thanks Martha, the alfalfa is certainly a variable, but honestly it would have been so little in terms of the amount he would have ingested it seems unlikely as the root cause.

As a test because I didn't have time to pull put the foxtail, I switched for two days in the middle  of the soreness to the finta orchard only and that didn't provide any improvement.  And the pulses behind seem to indicate more metabolic systematic response. My gut tells me he is early PPID without positive acth.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Mare swollen like a balloon

 

The Triple Crown cubes are also sold by Ontario Dehy and colloquially known as ODTBC.  Locally, I can generally get either one, but now the ODTBC are in a two month backlog.  If you search the TC and OD websites, they generally tell you where you can buy the cubes.

Here’s a link to the TC dealers in Colorado, in case you haven’t seen that before.  And here’s a link to the Ontario Dehy contact page should want to ask them.  More than likely things will work fine through your regular grain dealer as long as you keep them apprised of your needs.

Good to know she is back to her assertive self.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Testing for high Iron

 

Blood letting (venesection) reduces blood supply in an effort to reduce iron in an effort to reduce iron overload in an effort to improve liver function in an effort to reduce insulin resistance. Reducing insulin is steps removed from blood letting.

You can start your research in Files. The first covers relevant studies in humans:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Iron,%20Iron%20Testing,%20Iron%20Overload/Iron%20and%20Insulin%20Resistance.pdf
More on venesection.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Iron,%20Iron%20Testing,%20Iron%20Overload/Iron%20and%20IR%20-%20Iron%20Depletion%20Therapy.pdf

The FIRST step is getting a complete iron workup from KSU and confirming that it indicates iron overload. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Iron,%20Iron%20Testing,%20Iron%20Overload/KSU%20Iron%20Submission%20Information.pdf 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Testing for high Iron

 

I thought it was for iron but it’s possible I misunderstood.  I might do some searching after I set down some of the balls I’m presently juggling.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Mare swollen like a balloon

crfranken
 

No one here carries the TCTBC. I ordered it, but she said 1 to 2 weeks minimum, so I am feeding the Teff in the meantime. I know she isn't getting the long stem, which is why she is getting 3 lbs of the beet pulp at this time.

She did seem better this morning. She banged the gate with her hoof when she saw me coming in impatience, and then she turned a circle and gave a little buck. And she didn't give me a hard time removing her fleece blanket.
--
Cyd F Colorado 2021


Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

 

Hi Nancy,
My understanding is that you should take him off pergolide for three weeks before doing a TRH stim test.  There are no normals associated with the post TRH stim test results while on pergolide.  I won’t comment on you hypothesis except to say it sounds good to me.

Is it possible that the trace amount of alfalfa you’ve noticed in your hay is enough to set him off?  I’ve never had an alfalfa sensitive horse but my understanding is that the cause is unknown and there is no way to modify the hay to counteract its presence.  Alfalfa itself tends to have low s/s.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Testing for high Iron

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: New Hay - results. Does his current diet align to this new hay well enough?

Lorna Cane
 

And to add to your list of carriers, Cass, soy hull pellets are great also.
Just dampen,no need to rinse.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: New Hay - results. Does his current diet align to this new hay well enough?

 

Hi, Laura.
We're all uncertain and confused at first, but when it comes to balancing, I promise you will learn by practicing. Join the NRCPlus Grads group and ask for help. Also, keep working down the list of balancers and mention you want to learn to balance for yourself. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/HAY%20BALANCING-1.pdf

On feeding mineral supplements, I don't see in your CH what you're using as a carrier for your minerals. Most of us use about half a pound of a safe carrier like RSR beet pulp, ODTBC or Nuzu Stabul1 or a mixture of them. You'll find a list of safe feeds in Files, here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/2.%20Safe%20Feeds     No need to feed a paste. You can soften the ODTC with a little water, warm water if you have it, so they fluff up. Mix in minerals dry and add just enough water to settle the dust, or your horse's preference. I use 225 grams ODTBC, dampened to fluff plus ½-1 cup Nuzu. You don't need the Nuzu with all horses, but mine prefer just a little inducement.
 
As for ground flax, Ero is a big fella. He needs at least 4 ounces by volume of ground flax. I feed 100 grams per day to my 1150 lb horse who isn't overweight. That is roughly one hard-packed 1 cup measure.

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Testing for high Iron

 

Blood letting has been used to decrease the amount of iron.  LJ did some of that with his horse but I don’t recall if the results showed it was worth the trouble.  It took me a few re-readings of your post to realize that was what your friend must have been referring to.  It takes awhile to rebuild the blood supply and if you haven’t addressed the source of the high iron, you may be right back where you started.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: New Hay - results. Does his current diet align to this new hay well enough?

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Laura,

My experience (and that of others) has been that the person who balances your hay from this group will also explain the why's of their work,and answer other questions which you have .
Did I see that you have been trying to find a person to balance for you? If not,there is a link in our Files, providing contacts.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

So this does help make sense of  what I am seeing after stopping Vinnie's prascend... do he probably has the early PPID and after stopping prascend was a cascading effect invokana helping insulin but as acth continued to rise through and after day 21 that he got foot sore on about day 32.
"McFarlane's study on ACTH and pergolide in PPID horses found that by 10 days after the last dose there is no detectable pergolide in any horse.  At five days, half the horses still had low levels of pergolide but 2/3 were showing ACTH on the rise.  At 2 days after the last dose, ACTH had increased by 50% in half the horses and there was a significant rise in all the horses by 14 days after stopping pergolide and this continued to rise to the 21 day mark."
I just really hope I can get him past the veil.  

Can I do TRH stim while on prascend to see if prascend is working? Or would I just test standard acth?  I started him on a .25 dose last night because I don't want the laminitic episode to progress.

--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: New Hay - results. Does his current diet align to this new hay well enough?

Laura and Ero
 

Lorna - good to know and I'll watch for communications on how to join that, thank you! I feel like I'm trying to do the work, but falling short often. We all learn differently and I'm wondering if there are people willing to be a tutor?


--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album


Re: New Hay - results. Does his current diet align to this new hay well enough?

 

Hi Laura,
I took the NRC+ course quite awhile ago and had Uckele prepare a custom mix to balance my hay.  They will do the balancing free if you purchase the mix from them.  Their balancer moved on and Dr. Kellon took over that job so that’s an option for you.  More recently, I found myself ‘between’ hays and not sure a tub of their custom mix could keep up with my changing hay so I looked into what commercial premixed blend I could use and modify to meet my changing needs.  I also realized there is group of NRC+ graduates who discuss their balancing issues.  The group is called NRC Plus Grads, which you can find under the list of Groups at the top of the page.  This may or may not get you there.   I followed along with what they were doing and discussing, using my previously balanced hay as an example.  I’m still not proficient at balancing it but I’m getting better.  U-Balance Foundation seems to come pretty close to balancing my hay and only needs an addition or two, depending on the hay.  I buy from the same farm every year and it seems fairly easy to balance, with the exception of the year the rake needed replacing after adding a lot of dirt to my hay.

Remember there two types of measurements, weight (dry) and volume (liquid).  We use the weight ones so you need a scale.  A half cup of water weighs 4 ounces but 1/2 cup of flax weighs 2.63 ounces.  If you weigh out the amount of flax you want, you can measure it’s volume with a measuring cup and measure out (by volume) the amount you need each serving.

Another method of giving supplements is to sprinkle it onto wet hay.  I especially do this with salt and the one time I used phosphorus as I was advised that horses don’t find the taste appealing.  I always give medications directly, rather than in their feed, to make sure it’s ingested.  I start out with a small amount of supplements (in a small amount of rsr beet pulp, if that is your carrier) and the rest on the hay.  When the horse get more used to eating the supplements, you can begin moving more from the hay into the supplement bucket.  The small amount of beet pulp used as a carrier should not affect your calcium enough for the hay to need rebalancing.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Kristen, thanks for the response.  He was much worse in a boot because of heel rubs.on the left. So I don't think that is it. 

I definitely think it is metabolic response, I am just trying to understand the bw numbers in context to physical symptoms.

My farrier agrees it is not mechanical in the sense that adjusting breakover etc would not have made a difference. 

He is sore on hard ground, not as much on soft.. LF is better than RF

We didn't rule out collections but he has moderate pulses (including the hinds which is not been usual for him)  which implies not circulatory or mechanical and more metabolic laminitis.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104

2881 - 2900 of 260940