Date   

Re: Dewi - latest blood test results - high resting insulin - what to do next?

jenny.comish@...
 

Thank you all so much for your massively helpful responses. It is such a comfort having this group - I finally feel I am starting to make small steps in seeing if there is light at the end of the tunnel for Dewi. And the vet I’m using seems much more motivated to try to help Dewi than my last vet practice who had no interest in taking more bloods and made no further suggestions for what could be done for him. 


My vet is not sure he sees much benefit in following the advice from Liphook to take blood after a 2 hour fast and then a 6 hour fast. He has said he will call Andy Durham at Liphook on Monday to discuss it. But of course my vet thinks I had already fasted! But in a sense Dewi had blood taken after a 2 hour fast due to slowness of vet so the 6 hour fast would be the only thing that had not been done.

Dr Kellon - thank you for confirming that you think my blood tests are ok to be counted as non-fasting. I imagine it was less than 2 hours before I arrived that Dewi had run out of hay as usually he does have a little left and I was a bit late that morning. Do you think Liphook’s advice is worth following with the 6 hr fast? The way I see it Dewi has a massive problem and his insulin is going to be abnormal no matter what test we do.  But would appreciate your thoughts on this.

My vet agrees Metformin in worth another go. But if it only works short term it’s where I go from there?

I got my hay analysis results back today - ESC is 6.3%, starch is 1.60%, WSC 14.5%. Protein is better than past hay - 9.10%. Do you think it could be worth me sending another hay sample off for analysis that has been soaked for an hour to see how much it brings down the ESC? I was just thinking that maybe 7.9% combined ESC and starch could be borderline for Dewi? But I already always soak it for a min of one hour before feeding. 


Thanks for the advice on diet Sherry. I find it so hard cutting his hay ration as I hate to think of him stood for long periods with no food. But if you think it could further help his insulin I will do it. I can feel his ribs easily.  But my vet still thinks losing a bit more weight would be helpful. I will do anything to get him out of this mess! 


As regards his ACTH, my vet agrees this is elevated. I do wonder if past samples have not been handled correctly by my previous vet.... My new vet has suggested I put Dewi on a product called Equilife Vitex. But I’ve looked up chasteberry on here and it doesn’t sound like it will do much for Dewi as I have only read that it helps with shedding and Dewi doesn’t have an issue with that. And thanks for the tip about trying pergolide before the seasonal rise. 


Dr Kellon - do you think Dewi ought to be on pergolide now? Also would it be possible to send me/my vet information on Invokana? If so, my email address is jenny.comish@...

And as for the x-rays, I’m still waiting on those - my vet has been busy lambing and calving all week. Bit frustrating as I want to get them on here. But I am VERY lucky as Sarah Braithwaite from Forage Plus has offered to come and take a look at Dewi’s feet next Wednesday for me. We’ve been corresponding about Dewi for sometime. I’m not local to Sarah but she is making a special trip 😊.

Once again, thank you all so much for the huge support. It’s heart warming to think there are people the other side of the globe all trying to help get Dewi better 😊.

Jenny (oh and I will add my hay analysis to my files and also I forgot to add my TRH stimulation test results to my case history! Post TRH he was 123). 
--
Jenny Comish
England, UK
Dewi Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jenny%20Dewi
Dewi Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257833


Re: Bloodwork drawn once yearly?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Patricia,

I agree with Lorna as far as the timing of the testing.  Of the three of them Dancer is the one I'd be most concerned with as her insulin is elevated, even with the metformin.  Is there a reason that the metformin was stopped and was her insulin checked after it was stopped to see if it stayed down or went up when she was no longer on it?




Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: Bloodwork drawn once yearly?

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Patricia,

If she were mine,because there are numbers for last June,and because at that time of year ,at least the ACTH should be in good range, I would draw again in June this year.
My thinking is that if I wait til September, there being numbers for then,too,and numbers are high I'm at more of a disadvantage than if I find numbers out of line in June.
I can see how others may disagree with this, but without more details this would be my approach.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Bloodwork drawn once yearly?

Patricia Evans
 

Hi all,
I know it's best to draw bloodwork a minimum of twice yearly, but financial challenges are making life difficult for me as well as everyone. My particular problem is when to draw bloodwork if I can only afford to do it once a year? It was last drawn in September of 2020 (and no, my case histories are not up to date :( , sorry). I know I should have drawn labs on my three PPID horses already this year, but so far I have not been able to get it done. The vet charges me $485 for ACTH and insulin plus a farm fee, and right now it's not within my reach. All three are doing well, but I did need to put Dancer on metformin to get her insulin down last year. The repeat blood draw showed that her insulin did respond well, but no other labs have been drawn since then. 6/15/20 her insulin was 62.72 and after almost 3 months on metformin it was down to 40.80. She is now off it, but it seemed to be a big deal to my vet to get the prescription, since her insulin wasn't in the 100's. Since she has had laminitis twice in her life, I was able to finally talk the vet into giving it to me. 

I did look in the files and messages, but could not find anything about once yearly bloodwork timing. Any answers are much appreciated!
--

Patricia 

North central Florida

July 7 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patricia%20and%20Dancer%20and%20Nathan
Dancer:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=66069

Nathan:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94152
Snickers 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241740 


Re: Purina Outlast

 

Ok ..that makes sense ..thank you!


--
Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa
joined 5/19/2016


Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Nancy,

We usually recommend titrating up 3 days at a time so you can up the dose now.




Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi, again.. a little crisis mode today trying not to panic. Vinnie is pretty sore, farrier coming back to see if we can figure out of there is a collection. We opted to hold on doing anything to see if starting prascend helped.  It seemed to help a bit, but of course I am titrating up.

So being as Vinnie is as sore as he is with pulses in all four.. should I throw caution to.the wind and up his dose of prascend now to .50? Today is day 3.  He on in APF 10mls am.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: It’s Giving Tuesday....Here’s how you can help the ECIR Group!

Nancy C
 

Yes, Shirley.  Thank you very much.

There is also a service called iGive.

https://www.igive.com/welcome/lp16/cr64a.cfm

Every little bit helps.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: It’s Giving Tuesday....Here’s how you can help the ECIR Group!

Shirley J.
 

Thank you for reposting (awhile ago) about the AmazonSmile option – I signed up and made a point to order what I could through Amazon to help support the group!  It wasn’t much, but every little bit helps, right?  Glad to hear you met the goal 😊


--
Shirley J. in Michigan
Joined 2020 (because what else could go wrong?)


Re: Omega Alpha Supplements

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Michele,

MSM can be problematic for some IR horses (see message https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/259636).  Glucosamine can also be an issue (see message https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/257235) You may want to try PhytoQuench with Devil's Claw or MoveEase from My Best Horse if you need a joint supplement. 

As far as the Adren Fx and the Respiration one - there's nothing that jumps out as harmful but if you do decide to use either one I'd definitely make notes to see they makes any difference before deciding to use them long term and to confirm the effects are due to the supplement I wouldn't change anything else at the same time.



 



Re: It’s Giving Tuesday....Here’s how you can help the ECIR Group!

Nancy C
 

Dear ECIR Group Members

Wearing my Treasurer hat, I am in the process of wrapping up 2020 year-end financial details.

Wanted to let you all know that, thanks to 172 donations, we made our year-end Mighty Cause fundraising goal of $12,000.

Given how hard 2020 was for so many people and their animals, we are especially grateful.

Thank you.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Bloodwork, PPID, EMS Invokana and Pergolide

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I am hoping maybe someone can shed some thoughts on why before we started invokana that his insulin jumped so high to 198.37, but acth 20.2 making be thubk that it wasn't the acth causing the insulin rise.

I have listened to 3 different podcasts to try and understand the mechanisms that cause insulin rise, and this is important to me because I want to prevent any more set backs.

Are there other hormones in geldings that can cause insulin to rise? I was looking back at pictures and only of u knew then what inknow now... even 8 years ago Vinnie fit the Ems model to a T.. added an image to my folder. 

I am also going to test iron on the next bloodwork we do.  
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Mare swollen like a balloon

crfranken
 

My Tractor Supply was willing to order them for me, but they were going to charge me shipping ($187) for my order. That is why I chose the feed store. She wasn't going to charge me a shipping fee. If they didn't try to charge me shipping, I would've ordered them as they have faster delivery times, usually, though, lately, it's been out of stock of a lot of products.
--
Cyd F Colorado 2021


Re: Testing for high Iron

Starshine Ranch
 


--Thank you all so much for your responses... I'm not sure I would undergo the whole blood letting procedure but it might be worth finding out about the Iron... my horses ate untested hay for so many years before I got educated... it would be good to know... and if there are meds for it, then definitely I will test.

Linda in CA  2020  Midnight and Ostara


Omega Alpha Supplements

 

Are the Omega Alpha Supplements generally safe to give to IR/Cushings horses ?? , and are there any contraindications if the horse is on Jiagulon ??..specifically looking at Antiflamm, Sinew X, Respifree, and the Adren Fx.

Antiflamm:

 

Contains 6 anti-inflammatory herbs
Strengthens ligaments and joints
Can be used for both chronic and acute situations
Ideal for horses with laminitis, founder, or tender feet
Supplies sulfur to the body, important for many biochemical reactions in the body
Helps with recovery and body aches, especially in the back, joints, legs and feet

RECOMMENDED USES: Reduces discomfort in the feet and throughout the body.

INGREDIENTS PER 60 mL /2 oz dose:
Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM)………………………………………………………………………….3000 mg
Notopterygium incisum (Notopterygium Root)……………………………………………………3000 mg
Rehmannia Glutinosa (Rehmannia Root)……………………………………………………………1500 mg
Gentiana macrophylla (Gentian Root)………………………………………………………………….900 mg
Angelica pubescens (Angelica Root)……………………………………………………………………..600 mg
Acanthopanax gracilistylus (Acanthopanax Bark)…………………………………………………..600 mg
Piper futokadsura (Kadsura Pepper Stem)…………………………………………………………….300 mg

ADDITIONAL INGREDIENTS: Purified water, Guar gum, Citric acid, Potassium sorbate, Benzoic acid (buffered).

Sinew X:

 

A source of raw ingredients necessary for joints, cartilage, sinews and ligaments
Supplies sulfur from MSM to the body, important for biochemical reactions
Contains 3 botanical herbs that help reduce inflammation
Helps to reduce post performance mobility issues
For severe cases, use in conjunction with AntiFlam™

RECOMMENDED USES: Sinew-X™ aids in the support of the musculoskeletal system and provides joint support.

NGREDIENTS PER 30 mL/1 oz:
D-Glucosamine Sulphate (Shellfish exoskeletons)………………………………….. 5000 mg
Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM)……………………………………………………………. 3500 mg
Notopterygium incisum (Notopterygium Root)………………………………………. 2500 mg
Gentiana macrophylla (Largeleaf Gentian Root)…………………………………….. 2000 mg
Ledebouriella divaricata (Siler Root)…………………………………………………….. 2000 mg

ADDITIONAL INGREDIENTS: Purified water, Guar gum, Citric acid, Potassium sorbate, Benzoic acid (buffered), Natural apple concentrate.

Their Sinew X +HA  formula contains HA,bosweilla ,curcumin but no msm 

Adren Fx

 

Helps maintain healthy blood sugar
Helps balance body hormones
Contains sources of antioxidants that help against oxidative stress
Has adaptogenic herbs that can help the body cope with physical and mental stress
Contains anti-inflammatory herbs that aid in inflammatory conditions such as equine metabolic disorders

RECOMMENDED USES: A botanical formulation to help maintain healthy blood levels and to balance hormones.

INGREDIENTS PER 60 mL/2 oz serving:
Vitex agnus-castus (Chasteberry Fruit)…………………………………………………….600 mg
Angelica Sinensis (Chinese Angelica Root)(Dong Quai)……………………………..600 mg
Eleutherococcus senticosus (Eleuthero Root)……………………………………………600 mg
Withania somnifera (Ashwagandha Root)………………………………………………..600 mg
Astragalus membranaceus (Astragalus Root)……………………………………………450 mg
Rehmannia Glutinosa (Rehmannia Root)………………………………………………..600 mg
Momordica charantia (Bitter Gourd Fruit)………………………………………………900 mg
Glycyrrhiza glabra (Licorice Root)………………………………………………………….600 mg
Zingiber officinale (Ginger Rhizome)……………………………………………………..600 mg
Potassium (Potassium Chloride)…………………………………………………………….314 mg
Cinnamomum cassia (Cinnamon)………………………………………………………….900 mg
Lycium chinense (Goji Berry)………………………………………………………………..900 mg
Panax quinquefolius (North American Ginseng Root)……………………………..600 mg
Chromium (Chromium Polynicotinate)………………………………………………….. 2.1 mcg

ADDITIONAL INGREDIENTS: Purified water, Guar gum, Citric acid, Potassium sorbate, Benzoic acid (buffered).


Respifree:

 

Contains a combination of 15 herbs for complete respiratory support
Aids detoxification pathways for the lungs
Provides antioxidants for normal lung functions
Contains phytonutrients and trace elements
Helps maintain normal respiratory tract health
Helps to clear mucus and improve overall respiration
Stimulates blood flow in lung capillaries to remove toxins
Has: Airwaves™, Lung Flush™ and Herba Coff™ formulations
Has botanical herbs with antioxidant and antiinflammatory properties
Has anti-histamine action which helps alleviate allergy symptoms
Helps to suppress coughing
Promotes expectoration

RECOMMENDED USES: An herbal, three-in-one formulation for complete respiratory support.

INGREDIENTS PER 30 mL/1 oz:
Scuttellaria baicalensis (Skullcap Baical Root)……………………….135 mg
Lonicera japonica (Japanese Honeysuckle Flower)…………………235 mg
Chrysanthemum morifolium (Chrysanthemum Flower)…………235 mg
Morus alba (Mulberry Leaf)…………………………………………………….70 mg
Eriobotryae japonica (Loquat Leaf)………………………………………..400 mg
Polygala tenuifolia (Thinleaf Milkwort Root)…………………………..275 mg
Momordica grosvenori (Monk Fruit)………………………………………100 mg
Mentha canadensis (Peppermint Leaf)…………………………………..400 mg
Bulbus fritillariae thunbergii (Thunberg Fritillary Bulb)…………..100 mg
Eucalyptus globulus (Eucalyptus Leaf)……………………………………400 mg
Rosmarinus officinalis (Rosemary Leaf)………………………………….235 mg
Verbascum thapsus (Mullein)…………………………………………………400 mg
Asclepias tuberosa (Pleurisy Root)…………………………………………400 mg
Inula helenium (Elecampagne Root)………………………………………400 mg
Urtica dioica (Stinging Nettles)……………………………………………….200 mg

ADDITIONAL INGREDIENTS: Purified water, Menthol, Citric acid, Guar gum, Potassium sorbate, Benzoic acid (buffered), Natural cherry flavour.

 


-- 

Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa 
joined 5/19/2016


Re: Triple Crown Timothy Hay Cubes as complete diet

Lorna Cane
 

Right, Diann , we always calculate using dry weight .

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Triple Crown Timothy Hay Cubes as complete diet

 

I am assuming the 3:4 ratio is dry not soaked.
--
Diann Kuzma
One Hoof at a Time
Medford, OR
Joined 2018


Re: Triple Crown Timothy Hay Cubes as complete diet

Suzy Berkowitz
 

Hi Sherry. Thank you
--
Suzy in Fl 2020


Appetitie aid

Jen
 
Edited

Hi all! 
I just came across this product and thought it may be an option for us Canadians who have a hard time sourcing APF.
https://advancedappetite.com/home

--
Jen Dunbar, Hr. Main, NL. Canada 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jen%20and%20Copper

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