Date   

Re: turnout?

liisaacson
 

Yes - thank you. Currently we have snow pack.  In certain areas of the small paddock there is dormant grass under the snow, but he doesn't tend to dig for it.  Is my assumption correct that even dormant grass is a no no? I was planning to muzzle him once the snow has melted and the dormant grass is exposed.

Thanks
lisa

--
Lisa and Haven
Independence, MN
2015

Haven's case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Haven 

Haven's photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261155 


Re: Relevante trim guidelines

Frances C.
 

Thank you for sharing what Cowboy Joe said - makes my day
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: turnout?

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Based on what you wrote above, I don't see any issues with letting him have turnout and free-choice movement.  There is always the chance of exacerbating/causing injury, for example if the herd spooks and gallops back to the barn, but the mental and physical health benefit of being out and moving around is pretty high on my priority list.  I'm assuming there is no access to grass or bark or anything that could worsen his elevated insulin in his turnout area of course.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Wrangler

Candice Piraino
 
Edited

Hi Tiffany and welcome!

Please upload some hoof photos for us to take a closer peek at what may be causing some issues, if it can be seen by our eyes! If you have any radiographs, please upload those as well. The first step is to complete a case history. The following information is going to be a lot. So try to take it step by step. The next step would be to get proper testing completed with a correct blood draw. All of this is detailed below.

I know for a fact, since I personally feed my herd this vitamin and mineral, that Vermont Blend runs $1.10 a day per serving per horse. Vermont Blend is on the ECIR approved list and can be easily ordered online. See www.customeequinenutrition.com for more information. This is only one of several approved vitamins and minerals you have access to. Here is an approved list: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/Acceptable%20commercial%20ration%20balancers/Acceptable%20Ration%20Balancers.pdf


The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 



--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @ www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: Managing hoof boots

Candice Piraino
 

Hi Sue!

I see you have received some great feedback by our members and their experiences. You could always try to add studs to your boots. EasyCare, Inc sells them as does ScootBoots. The ones from EasyCare are very easy to apply. You can always try to apply a couple at at a time to gauge how well Boss likes the extra "stick". Also, if you visit EasyCare's website- they have a blog with a lot of great articles from hoof care practitioners in regards to boots as well as from the owner Garrett.

When using boots, it is best if they are removed once a day to allow the feet to dry out as well as the boots. I always like to suggest cornstarch put in the boots to help with the added moisture. Sometimes it is best to have 2 pairs of boots on hand so you have adequate time for drying each set of boots.

Hope this helps you!
--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Candice%20and%20Shark

Shark's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71507 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @ www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Wrangler

tiffanypaige9792@...
 

Hello,
I am researching all I can to understand my horse. For the last 6 months he has seemed slightly off: a little bit lethargic, not happy to stretch out in the trot or canter. I thought it was thrush in his hooves (which maybe does affect him somewhat) but I feel like I have that under control. He is a little overweight now and of course he gets more overweight in summer if I’m not careful. He is out on pasture 24/7 now. They have access to salt and I supplement with minerals. But I’m sure he’s still probably low on copper and zinc. I lost the ingredient list for my minerals so I’m not exactly sure what’s in the bag but my barefoot trimmer did recommend them to me. I do not have ideal circumstances and I’m on a budget. I do suspect possibly EMS or IR. What would be my next step to take? Should he be only eating hay? Where can I get pure but budget-friendly minerals? 

Thanks in advance!
--
Tiffany Boese in southern Alberta, Canada 2021


Re: Flax/fat supplement

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Bonny,

Can you give us diet details for your mare?
What is she being fed,total diet ?

Chia seeds would be fine if she isn't allergic to them. Their omega 3 to omega 6 ratio is very close to that of flax , which offers about the same omega 3 to 6 ratio as grass, of 4:1. (Chia offers about 3:1 according to my sources.) Chia is more expensive,at least up here,but could be an option.

You're right to avoid rice bran,because of its high concentration of the inflammatory omega 6 .

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: use of uckele cbd pellets

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Fixing the negative palmer angles would be the best choice.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


use of uckele cbd pellets

Daisy Shepherd
 

 tiko 13 1/2 years, noted soreness with hind end which he works out of, vet says minimal fluid in stifles so maybe beginning arthritis, also has negative palmer angle all 4 feet.  would daily cbd pellets be a good choice for him? thank s, daisy and tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Flax/fat supplement

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I would avoid rice bran for an IR horse. 

The only fats we need to add are omega-3.  No other added fats are needed, there is an appropriate amount of fat in their forage-based diet.  It's just that the omega-3 FAs do not survive in hay, so supplementing those are what is important. 

Flax has a similar 3:6 profile as grass and it us affordable so it is what we usually recommend (although there are a few other, rarer options).  Flaxseed OIL is safe as the oil does not contain any of the flax protein and it is the proteins that cause allergic reactions.  A 1000 lb horse would need 2.5-3 Tbsp/day.  Just keep it refrigerated and buy the human-grade oil (not the cattle grade oil).  Chia seeds are fine, too.  I'm not sure how much to give but Dr Kellon has commented on them a few times if you do a message search.

Another effective way to ensure she gets omega-3 fatty acids might be to give human capsules of algae-derived DHA.  

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Candy Update: Invokana on board Questions and Concerns re. symptoms and diet

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Shawn,

It sounds like the Invokana is helping with the high insulin caused by Candy being a horse with EMS, which is a genetic type she has always been, but the remaining signs you are describing are more likely to be related to poorly controlled PPID, which is an age-related disease condition she likely developed in the last few years.  They are 2 separate conditions, although the typical signs overlap to some degree.  The insulin does not have to be high for the physical signs of PPID to manifest.  The heat intolerance and coat changes in particular are indicative of PPID, but so are all the other signs you listed.  Her low body score is another sign that PPID isn't being fully managed.  There are some cases of PPID where the ACTH just doesn't provide a measure of the disease, so if Candy's is 22 and you are still seeing these signs, try to get it in the the middle 'teens.  Many of our members report that their horses do best with ACTH around 17.  You are lucky you have a vet that says to treat the signs, not the numbers...

If you get a custom mineral mix made for your hay, it will be a granular powder that Candy cannot "eat around" after you mix it in to her carrier.  Or, some people dampen their hay and just sprinkle the minerals on top of it to get their picky eaters to actually eat the minerals!  I don't know if she'll eat her hay dampened? 

With that high protein, you should run a nitrate test.  If nitrates are high, the hay will need to be soaked to be safe to feed.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


turnout?

liisaacson
 

Hi All,

How do I know when it is OK to turn Haven out with the rest of my small herd? There are only 2 others and he does not get chased by them. It will be 40 degrees here today and I feel like this is OK. He is not on any NSAIDs and is fairly comfortable walking. 

Thanks in advance,
LIsa
--
Lisa and Haven
Independence, MN
2015

Haven's case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Haven 

Haven's photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261155 


Re: Begining

 

Thanks, Suzy!  I totally forgot that there may not be a Pages app already on the iPad.  Someone in your position makes the best tutor!
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Begining

Suzy Berkowitz
 

Hi Daune. I only have an iPad also and no computer experience. I couldn’t fill out the form either until I downloaded the pages app from the app store( it’s orange).I then could start filling out the form by double clicking the box I wanted to write in. Hope this helps😊
--
Suzy in Fl 2020
Scout Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzy%20Scout
Scout Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260915


Re: Relevante trim guidelines

Lynn
 

Thank you Lavinia! I am super excited. Since he has been hand walked almost every day since November 2020 I had planned to saddle him, hang a couple 5 lb. sand bags and hand walk him in the arena for 30 minutes. I thought I would do that several times then follow that the next week by getting on and riding (walk only) for 10 or 15 minutes to start. If that sounds like a reasonable introduction to formal exercise then I will implement. I did want to share something I hope will encourage others here that are fighting the good fight. There's a trainer in his late 60s that is often hired by quarter horse breeders near our farm to take on young animals that come to our barn temporarily for him to start/train. He is very well thought of - I like him because he is kind, listens to the horse and pulls from the techniques of a lot of experts ..not just subscribing to one. He gets results because he employs common sense with a non-violent approach. Saturday I had Relevante out and was grooming him and "Cowboy Joe" - who was around when Relevante was first diagnosed and looked terrible with full blown uncontrolled PPID symptoms following laminitis [in this case the dreaded precursor to PPID] - came up to me and said, "You know...I didn't want to say anything...but I really didn't think he was going to make it. I didn't think he would pull out of it. It's amazing what you have done with him. He looks great. So when are you coming back into the arena to ride?" Of course, I was quick to tell him that it wasn't me at all but a whole army of volunteers, vets, our hoof guru Lavinia and others that have carried us through this marathon. I showed him the trim markups we do, the radiograph comparisons that showed such marked improvement and he was quite amazed and interested by what is accomplished by this group. As am I! I am truly overwhelmed with gratitude to everyone who has contributed to us reaching this point in the journey.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Red Light Therapy

Bobbie Day
 

Marsha you could always do what we have discussed here before if she’s in doubt about new growth, paint a line on the coronary band with some fingernail polish, see if it moves down. That’s what I do when I’m convinced we’re not making headway, you’ll probably be surprised.


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Begining

 

Hi Daune,
I seem to have replied to you on a different thread.  Please take a look here.  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/262021
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Beginingi

 

Hi Daune,
I’m pretty iPad friendly so I hope I can help you get going.  

First you need to download the case history form and it sounds like you’ve done that and then you have to save it somewhere you can find again.  Let’s use the Cloud because you have access to it.  When you choose to save it , it will go to your Files app where you can select between iCloud Drive and your iPad.  Select iCloud Drive.  You may not have anything else there if you’re the only one using this device.  As you get more comfortable with this, you can even make an ECIR folder in your files and store it there.

When you’re ready to add data to the form, go to Files and look for what you saved there.  When you open the form, in the upper right corner, you will see a circle with 3 dots and a button that says ‘Edit’.  You will need to select Edit in order to add anything to the form.

If this doesn’t get you going, please let me know.  You can send me a private message by selecting ‘Private’ next to the Discard button.  That way we won’t bother others with information they may or may not be interested in.

The iPad is a clever device that can do much of what a full size computer does.  There’s always something new to learn on it.  Just keep me updated with how you are doing.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Candy Update: Invokana on board Questions and Concerns re. symptoms and diet

Jennifer Murphy
 

Flea's ACTH is within normal range for the first time in years, and his insulin was 270 when I started him on the Invokana.  I didn't see outward signs of relief until around the beginning of week 3, even though his insulin had dropped to 88 by the 1st week.  I think each equine must respond differently.
--
Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Begining

Daune Gatenby
 


--
Daune
Southeastern Massachusetts 
2021

i am so poor at computer (ipad) work i cant do what i have been asked to do by your group.   I have received the history form for ipad but i have no idea how to write in the blocks.   I must need to save it somewhere and then edit it but i have no idea where it gets saved to.    Thanks for your help but right now i am hopeless.   

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