Hello,
I am researching all I can to understand my horse. For the last 6 months he has seemed slightly off: a little bit lethargic, not happy to stretch out in the trot or canter. I thought it was thrush in his hooves (which maybe does affect him somewhat) but I feel like I have that under control. He is a little overweight now and of course he gets more overweight in summer if I’m not careful. He is out on pasture 24/7 now. They have access to salt and I supplement with minerals. But I’m sure he’s still probably low on copper and zinc. I lost the ingredient list for my minerals so I’m not exactly sure what’s in the bag but my barefoot trimmer did recommend them to me. I do not have ideal circumstances and I’m on a budget. I do suspect possibly EMS or IR. What would be my next step to take? Should he be only eating hay? Where can I get pure but budget-friendly minerals? 

Thanks in advance!
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Tiffany Boese in southern Alberta, Canada 2021

Hi Bonny,

Can you give us diet details for your mare?
What is she being fed,total diet ?

Chia seeds would be fine if she isn't allergic to them. Their omega 3 to omega 6 ratio is very close to that of flax , which offers about the same omega 3 to 6 ratio as grass, of 4:1. (Chia offers about 3:1 according to my sources.) Chia is more expensive,at least up here,but could be an option.

You're right to avoid rice bran,because of its high concentration of the inflammatory omega 6 .

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

Fixing the negative palmer angles would be the best choice.

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Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

 tiko 13 1/2 years, noted soreness with hind end which he works out of, vet says minimal fluid in stifles so maybe beginning arthritis, also has negative palmer angle all 4 feet.  would daily cbd pellets be a good choice for him? thank s, daisy and tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0

I would avoid rice bran for an IR horse. 

The only fats we need to add are omega-3.  No other added fats are needed, there is an appropriate amount of fat in their forage-based diet.  It's just that the omega-3 FAs do not survive in hay, so supplementing those are what is important. 

Flax has a similar 3:6 profile as grass and it us affordable so it is what we usually recommend (although there are a few other, rarer options).  Flaxseed OIL is safe as the oil does not contain any of the flax protein and it is the proteins that cause allergic reactions.  A 1000 lb horse would need 2.5-3 Tbsp/day.  Just keep it refrigerated and buy the human-grade oil (not the cattle grade oil).  Chia seeds are fine, too.  I'm not sure how much to give but Dr Kellon has commented on them a few times if you do a message search.

Another effective way to ensure she gets omega-3 fatty acids might be to give human capsules of algae-derived DHA.  

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Hi Shawn,

It sounds like the Invokana is helping with the high insulin caused by Candy being a horse with EMS, which is a genetic type she has always been, but the remaining signs you are describing are more likely to be related to poorly controlled PPID, which is an age-related disease condition she likely developed in the last few years.  They are 2 separate conditions, although the typical signs overlap to some degree.  The insulin does not have to be high for the physical signs of PPID to manifest.  The heat intolerance and coat changes in particular are indicative of PPID, but so are all the other signs you listed.  Her low body score is another sign that PPID isn't being fully managed.  There are some cases of PPID where the ACTH just doesn't provide a measure of the disease, so if Candy's is 22 and you are still seeing these signs, try to get it in the the middle 'teens.  Many of our members report that their horses do best with ACTH around 17.  You are lucky you have a vet that says to treat the signs, not the numbers...

If you get a custom mineral mix made for your hay, it will be a granular powder that Candy cannot "eat around" after you mix it in to her carrier.  Or, some people dampen their hay and just sprinkle the minerals on top of it to get their picky eaters to actually eat the minerals!  I don't know if she'll eat her hay dampened? 

With that high protein, you should run a nitrate test.  If nitrates are high, the hay will need to be soaked to be safe to feed.

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Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Hi All,

How do I know when it is OK to turn Haven out with the rest of my small herd? There are only 2 others and he does not get chased by them. It will be 40 degrees here today and I feel like this is OK. He is not on any NSAIDs and is fairly comfortable walking. 

Thanks in advance,
LIsa
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Lisa and Haven
Independence, MN
2015

Haven's case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Haven 

Haven's photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261155 

Thanks, Suzy!  I totally forgot that there may not be a Pages app already on the iPad.  Someone in your position makes the best tutor!
--

Hi Daune. I only have an iPad also and no computer experience. I couldn’t fill out the form either until I downloaded the pages app from the app store( it’s orange).I then could start filling out the form by double clicking the box I wanted to write in. Hope this helps😊
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Suzy in Fl 2020
Scout Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzy%20Scout
Scout Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260915

Thank you Lavinia! I am super excited. Since he has been hand walked almost every day since November 2020 I had planned to saddle him, hang a couple 5 lb. sand bags and hand walk him in the arena for 30 minutes. I thought I would do that several times then follow that the next week by getting on and riding (walk only) for 10 or 15 minutes to start. If that sounds like a reasonable introduction to formal exercise then I will implement. I did want to share something I hope will encourage others here that are fighting the good fight. There's a trainer in his late 60s that is often hired by quarter horse breeders near our farm to take on young animals that come to our barn temporarily for him to start/train. He is very well thought of - I like him because he is kind, listens to the horse and pulls from the techniques of a lot of experts ..not just subscribing to one. He gets results because he employs common sense with a non-violent approach. Saturday I had Relevante out and was grooming him and "Cowboy Joe" - who was around when Relevante was first diagnosed and looked terrible with full blown uncontrolled PPID symptoms following laminitis [in this case the dreaded precursor to PPID] - came up to me and said, "You know...I didn't want to say anything...but I really didn't think he was going to make it. I didn't think he would pull out of it. It's amazing what you have done with him. He looks great. So when are you coming back into the arena to ride?" Of course, I was quick to tell him that it wasn't me at all but a whole army of volunteers, vets, our hoof guru Lavinia and others that have carried us through this marathon. I showed him the trim markups we do, the radiograph comparisons that showed such marked improvement and he was quite amazed and interested by what is accomplished by this group. As am I! I am truly overwhelmed with gratitude to everyone who has contributed to us reaching this point in the journey.
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Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω

Marsha you could always do what we have discussed here before if she’s in doubt about new growth, paint a line on the coronary band with some fingernail polish, see if it moves down. That’s what I do when I’m convinced we’re not making headway, you’ll probably be surprised.


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Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821

Hi Daune,
I seem to have replied to you on a different thread.  Please take a look here.  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/262021
--

Hi Daune,
I’m pretty iPad friendly so I hope I can help you get going.  

First you need to download the case history form and it sounds like you’ve done that and then you have to save it somewhere you can find again.  Let’s use the Cloud because you have access to it.  When you choose to save it , it will go to your Files app where you can select between iCloud Drive and your iPad.  Select iCloud Drive.  You may not have anything else there if you’re the only one using this device.  As you get more comfortable with this, you can even make an ECIR folder in your files and store it there.

When you’re ready to add data to the form, go to Files and look for what you saved there.  When you open the form, in the upper right corner, you will see a circle with 3 dots and a button that says ‘Edit’.  You will need to select Edit in order to add anything to the form.

If this doesn’t get you going, please let me know.  You can send me a private message by selecting ‘Private’ next to the Discard button.  That way we won’t bother others with information they may or may not be interested in.

The iPad is a clever device that can do much of what a full size computer does.  There’s always something new to learn on it.  Just keep me updated with how you are doing.

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Flea's ACTH is within normal range for the first time in years, and his insulin was 270 when I started him on the Invokana.  I didn't see outward signs of relief until around the beginning of week 3, even though his insulin had dropped to 88 by the 1st week.  I think each equine must respond differently.
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Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

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Daune
Southeastern Massachusetts 
2021

i am so poor at computer (ipad) work i cant do what i have been asked to do by your group.   I have received the history form for ipad but i have no idea how to write in the blocks.   I must need to save it somewhere and then edit it but i have no idea where it gets saved to.    Thanks for your help but right now i am hopeless.   

Hi Deb,

I took a quick look and the things have definitely improved in the trim department - good job. You can still back both fronts up considerably. Follow the angle of the new growth coming in under the coronary band to the ground - there should not be toe at ground level beyond that point. This is the green line on the rad mark-ups.

You can try him without boots on forgiving surfaces and see how he does. Start with an hour at a time and build it up from there. The fronts did appear to have decent sole depth in the rads.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

Hi Lynn,

I've added the latest mark-ups to Relevante's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=36909&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

Things continue to improve - YAY! You're into more targeted trimming, focusing on the specific areas that need attention while leaving the others alone. Look at each foot before starting and really "see" what is/isn't there. Watch him move - you want those coveted heel-first landings from him. He's developing concavity all around, which is great. Some of the bars appear to need a bit of attention to tidy up the leading edges of the material that is letting loose. Taper them gently up into the heel buttresses. Roll all the toes under, esp. on the hinds. The heels are standing up straighter but need to have rockers added to all of them to assist in getting them all the way. Really assess the sole depth on both sides of each foot. Check the amount of wall that is proud of the sole at the perimeter - you don't want more than1/4" (6mm).

LF lateral: Orange line shows where we are looking to encourage the heels to eventually end up. The yellow lines are following several of the growth rings across the foot - note the undulating pattern and how all of them dip down at the back. That is due to the heel position, so keeping an eye on those gives you another marker of whether things are improving or not.

LF dorsal sole plane: Yellow  areas are along the tops of the bars where they can be tapered gently back toward the heels. The sole also appears to be flaking - you can gently scrape along those areas with the back of the hoof knife to flip off any that are ready to let go.

LF sole plane: Lime arrows indicate that the heel heights need to be checked, as it looks like the medial heel is longer. Assess the collateral groove depths and the calloused sole plane on each side to determine if that is true or not.

LF sole: Blue hashed areas are where to roll the toe aggressively and where to take the wall out of weight bearing in the heels, plus add those rockers to the heels. Orange rectangles are where the tallest part of the heel buttress should remain. Yellow hashes run along the leading edges of the bars that appear to be ready to do some shedding.

RF lateral: Orange ;ine is again where the heels will eventually be. Blue area is where to roll the toe.

RF dorsal sole plane: Yellow hashes are again along the bars where they appear ready to shed.

RF sole: Blue hashed areas are where the toe gets rolled aggressively and where to take the walls out of weight bearing in the heels. Orange rectangles are where the highest point of the heels remains. Yellow hashes run along the leading edges of the bars, where they can be gently tapered up to the heels.

LH sole plane: Blue line runs thru what appears to be a crack that is ready to snap off that portion of the medial heel, so need to finish what Mother Nature started.

LH sole: Same general idea as the fronts.

RH sole: Same general idea as the other three feet, but note that medial toe wall needs to be brought back inward as it has flared more in that area than the adjacent wall.

As long as he's comfortable and landing heel first, he doesn't need to wear boots. Start introducing formal exercise and listen to what he tells you.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR

Hi Shawn,
We saw a huge improvement in Finn and Elliott’s foot soreness within 2 days. Finn was actively laminitic when he started invokana and he was out of his boots within a week and Elliott was out of his boots after just a few days.  Elliott seemed a little tender prior to invokana but not limpy, not laying down a lot and not in the classic laminitic stance like Finn was when started on invokana.  They both became happier and more playful. I did not see any improvement in other symptoms that quickly. Finn started to look quite sleek and lean after a few months. He’s never looked this good.  I think some of the symptoms just take time to resolve.  

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Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019

We’ve used the cloud boots when needed. Spares are good to have when one is lost somewhere in the field. My boys play a lot when they are feeling good so we’ve had missing boots often. I always feel like I’ve found treasure when one has been found that was lost for a few weeks. 

I switched to corn starch instead of gold bond. It seems to be better for preventing rubs and it’s much cheaper. 

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Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019

My old guys get 2 scoops once a day and are off of all NSAIDs. I have a gelding with navicular that just started so we will see how he does. I’ll get back to you on him. 
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Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019