Date   

Re: Pain Relief for IR PPID mini

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Marsha,

It would be great if you could post pictures of Buzzy now that he finally has had a trim.  Please make sure if you take pictures that you use a sock or vetwrap to get all the hair off his coronary band so you can see the entire foot.

As far as the Devil's Claw you can use Phytoquench pellets with Devil's Claw as a pain killer for him instead of the Equioxx.  I believe Dr. Kellon already addressed your question on the J-herb.  Information on dosing: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Jiaogulan,%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support,%20AAKG%20and%20Supps/Jiaogulan%20Doses%20and%20Precautions.pdf




Re: Question on thyroid and Mad Barn Amino Trace

 

On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 02:10 PM, Sandy wrote:
have to get some Vit E oil (do you all use this even if it's in the vit/min mix?).  The mares are around 325-350 lbs.
At 350 pounds, your mares weigh roughly 159 kg and need about 318 IU of Vitamin E daily (2 IU/kg). Rounding up to 400 IU is fine, too.

For all hay diets, we add Vitamin E in a form that is bioavailable. Vitamin E should be mixed into contact with oil, dissolved in oil, or micellized. If you're trying to economize, you might want to do price comparisons of different Vitamin E options instead of Vitamin E oil. Gel caps are the most convenient and widely available in retail stores. You'd feed one 400 IU gel cap/day/mare. It doesn't get easier than that.
Other options:
Uckele Liquid E    highly palatable, you'd need 1/8 teaspoon/day for each mare.
powdered Vitamin E from MyBestHorse.com that you mix in less than a teaspoon of oil at feed time.
Emcelle Tocopherol Vitamin E Liquid,  a micellized Vitamin E, a bit less than 3/4 of a ml for each of your minis with no oil required.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: CVS vitamin E capsules -- bad smell?

millionairess1989
 

Hi Susan,

I've used CVS vitamin e capsules for the almost 10 years that Mill has been PPID. There's never been a problem for me until my last purchase a few weeks ago. An almost rancid smelling odor was apparent the minute that I opened the bottles. They were 2 different quantities with expirations in 2023 and 2024. I had no problem returning them for a refund. The labels on the bottles state there is a money back guarantee. I've since ordered from Swanson Vitamins.
--
Jennifer in Middle TN  2010
 Mill 31 yrs Arabian-PPID, IR & Pacemaker Dependent
Jack 21 yrs TN Walker- IR & RAO

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Millionairess

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=831

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Jack-TN%20Walker


IR + Arthritis help

Kinsey
 

Hello,

Thank you so much to this group, Bucky has been doing well on his recovery from his mild laminitis episode back in October/November. He has been sound regarding the laminitis issues and his IR is under control with the ECIR protocols.

A separate issue has now come up - he is lame in his RH. I had the vet out today to take radiographs and turns out he has a small fracture in his coffin bone and severe arthritis in his hock (only radiographed the RH hock, but suspect it is probably similar in his LH as well). The vet made some recommendations as far as course of treatment goes but I am holding off on starting anything until I make sure everything will be ok relative to him having EMS.

So, my questions are:

  • EQUIOXX / The vet prescribed Equioxx for long-term use (he is on Jiaogulan now, I know Equioxx is an NSAID so I'm assuming I should take him off the Jiaogulan for now??) Vet made it seem like the Equioxx will likely be a life-long medication.
  • JOINT SUPPLEMENTS / Vet suggestions: Platinum Performance CJ (Complete Joint) or Cosequin ASU. Are these ok for an ECIR horse to get?
  • INJECTIONS / Vet's suggestions: Hock steroid injections (she noted that it may trigger laminitis so probably not the best choice), Adequan injections (1 injection 4 days in a row biannually), or Noltrex injections

If anyone has any help or suggestions to offer it would be much appreciated as well!

Thank you,
Kinsey

--
Kinsey in GA 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kinsey%20and%20Bucky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257041


Re: New diagnosis of EMS looking for guidance

 

Katrina, do you have any word processing capabilities?  I think there are some open source software that works, such as Apache Open Office and Libre Office.  The trick is to find one that will open your previous case history document and allow you to edit.  Once you finish it, please convert to pdf so it will be readable by others.  Let us know if you need help.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: New diagnosis of EMS looking for guidance

Casey76
 

I’ll do my best to update the case history tomorrow,  but I don’t have access to MS Word.

and yes, everything is out dated, because since her insulin came back OK in 2017, I haven’t been posting.

(updated link to case history)
--
Katrina

 

Mar 2017, Alsace, France

Tartine Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Katrina,%20Tartine%20and%20Blitz/Tartine%20Case%20History.doc

Tartine Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4725

Blitz (non-IR) foot photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=4743&p=Name,,,50,2,0,0 



Re: New diagnosis of EMS looking for guidance

 

Hi Katrina,
I went to have a look at Tartine’s case history and found that your link needs some help.  The link takes me to the general Case History files.  You could follow the link there and then make a folder titled Katrina and Tartine.  Once you have the folder set up go to your case history files here and move them into the folder you just made.  Then you can change the link in your signature to the new folder address.  That way, we’ll be able to see new entries as you make them.  Everything is quite outdated there now.

I would definitely have the straw tested.  Some straws test higher in sugars and starches than the hay it’s replacing.  And, while they’re doing that, they should get the hay tested as well.  It sounds like she’s getting lots of exercise and that’s what’s been keeping her insulin low enough to be out of the danger zone.  A closed muzzle, if that’s not what she’s already in, would be a big help.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Pain Relief for IR PPID mini

Buzz
 

Buzzy had his first trim on Monday since having his laminitic episode in Dec, as well as a diagnosis of IR,  in addition to his PPID. He is fortunately under the care of excellent trimmers with  Dr. Bowker assisting them. I am so grateful for the wonderful team we have established to save Buzzy!  He is quite sore given the condition he was in and his recent trim.  I gave him equiox for 2 days prior to his trim and have continued with it  for 2 days since.  I really want to get him off the Equiox and onto perhaps Devil's Claw.  I have the Plus, however find it is not appropriate due to the yucca. So, just Devil's Claw? Is there anything else that is safe for him as he is presently on metformin and .75 mg  prascend?  I also am getting low on his Laminox, however have 2 bags of J Herb.  Can I use those rather than ordering more Laminox at this time?  If so, what would be his appropriate dose of J Herb, he is 310 lbs as of yestereday. I want to be sure we are doing everything to bring this little guy back to soundness!  Once again, thank you for your help! Without that we would never stand a chance of saving Buzzy!
--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258797


Re: Lavinia Request for Mark Ups Please

lfitz66
 

I'm so sorry, I didn't see this message until now. I so appreciate the mark ups and advice you sent.
--
Leigh and May
Michigan
Joined 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Leigh%20and%20May
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260799


Re: Jiaogulan source

riggslippert@...
 

Hi Maria,

I am using a jiaogulan extract I get from Amazon because Cadet absolutely refuses to eat the powder.  Each capsule is supposed to contain 4100 mg equivalent as a 10:1 extract.  I give him 3/day, spaced out through the day.  His gums are more pink to me and the farrier thinks she can see the effect in his feet.  Hope this helps.
--
Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102




Re: Question on thyroid and Mad Barn Amino Trace

Sandy
 

Ok sounds good - have to get some Vit E oil (do you all use this even if it's in the vit/min mix?).  The mares are around 325-350 lbs.   They have never gotten sweet feed, only 1/4 cup of a pelleted ration balancer (probably they are lacking things).

Yes on the hypothyroidism and why I was asking.  I feel they are probably lacking in nutrients and with the cushing's and IR etc it created a problem with the thyroid.  I feel like maybe I should wait on using the thyroxine as I'm not sure if when you start it, you can stop.  I wish vets (and doctors) would understand the need for full thyroid panels and not just T4 ...... went through this with dogs and with myself as well.

Thanks for the info.  So much to learn ;-)

Sandy

On 3/11/2021 2:47 PM, Cass in NorCal wrote:

Sandy,
The smart way to start minerals is to make sure your mares will eat the carrier first. Dampen it just slightly, add a teaspoon salt, and feed it instead of "grain." Once that's accepted, add in stabilized ground flax seed. Horses generally like it. Once that's accepted, add in Vitamin E gel caps with oil. Without a case history, I don't know the weight of your mares, but 1000 IU of Vitamin E in gel caps with oil would be safe. If you're using 400 IU gel caps, then you need to add 3. Once that's accepted....you get the idea. Go slowly. After Amino Trace arrives, add it a teaspoon at a time. Horses used to sweet feed can take a while a accept safe carriers. I haven't read through all your posts to scrape up the details of your mares' weights and your feeds, so I'm not sure what carriers you're using. A case history would be a help.

As for hypothyroidism, two issues occur often. One is that horses haven't been fed adequate Iodine and Selenium in the diet. Both are required by the thyroid gland to operate normally. The second is that severe EMS or PPID (or other disease) can affect the thyroid function, causing a condition called Euthyroid Sick Syndrome. Correct the underlying nutritional and health issue, and thyroid levels normalize. Here's a message from Dr Kellon explaining Euthyroid Sick Syndrome: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/256520 Bottom line: get your mares the essential nutrients they require and control their metabolic conditions. If and when you're ready to recheck thyroid function, post again to learn the details of better thyroid tests than T4 alone. My Diamond arrived with very low whole blood selenium and who knows what level for prior iodine supplementation. Her T4 thyroid test was very very low, 0.164 when the normal range is 1-3 ug/dl.  Thyroid tests were normal after 9 months of proper nutrition.

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos
_._,_._,_



--
Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Minis with laminitis/cushings
2021


Re: Lavinia Request for Mark Ups Please

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Leigh,

I've added mark-ups to May's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260799

Her trim is generally a lot better than too many of the trims we see here. Comparing the past rads to the current ones, however, show that May has had some bony column rotation continuously from 2018 to the present. The trims may have never fully addressed the problem or she continues to experience sub-clinical laminitis on a regular basis that keeps causing rotation, worsening sinking and thinning of her soles. It's a vicious cycle. Her toes continue to remain too far out ahead of where they need to be and her heels are somewhat underrun. As you've noticed, there is wall flaring that is growing out but the laminar wedge has been consistently present. Trim needs to back up the toes and remove the wall flares, then continue to keep the toes backed up while encouraging the heels to move back so they support her bony column properly. Preserving all the sole she has remains a priority, as does getting those insulin levels down so that the laminitis stops continuing to damage her connections. Know you've been stymied on that front by the vet's preferences but hope you will be able to get some cooperation on that front soon.

LF lateral composite: On the rad, the pink line shows how the bony column should align, while the purple line follows the actual alignment. Note how the purple line bulges slightly ahead of the pink line, indicating bony column rotation. The pink line ends where the bony column needs the breakover to be. This point happens to be below the current sole depth but behind where the horizontal toe length currently ends. Green line follows the angle of the new, healthier growth coming in below the coronary band toward the ground and runs parallel to the pink line. Blue line is where the toe needs to backed up to, with the blue X denoting the excess toe length. Red line denotes NOTHING gets removed from the bottom of the foot in this area as it's already too short/thin. Lime line shows that the heels need to be lowered a bit to assist in correcting the rotation by allowing the rear of the coffin bone to relax downward. Yellow line #1 runs thru the coronary band, #2 points to the extensor process. The two should overlap - the distance between them denotes the amount of sinking. Orange line shows where the heels should be located. Note this line runs parallel to the pink and green lines.
On the photo, the green line is the same as on the rad. It's only a visual marker, not a trim line. Blue area corresponds to the blue X on the rad. Orange line is again where you are looking to eentually coax the heels to be.

LF dorsal: Green lines follow the angle of the healthier new growth down to the ground. Blue areas are the flared material that can be completely removed in the lower 1/3 of the hoof capsule. Foot appears to be slightly laterally high as well (or medially short). The distinction is important as you can lower a too-tall wall but don't lower a correct wall to match a too-short side. Compare both collateral groove depths to each other to see if that is the case. If one is deeper than the other, then you need to work toward fixing the disparity:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Balance.html

LF sole: Blue solid line is where the outer perimeter of the hoof should be when all flaring and wedge material is gone. Blue hashed areas correspond to the blue on the rad along the toe and the blue on the dorsal view. To help the heels stand up more upright, bevel the outer wall out of weight bearing, plus add a rocker to the back of both heels. Orange squares are where the weight bearing should be once you've done that. Yellow hashes are along areas of excess forg that is overhanging the collateral grooves and covering the backs of the heels - it can be trimmed away. Leave the rest of the frog alone. Here are some links to more discussion on the reasons for the recommendations:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Breakover.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

RF lateral composite: Same guidelines as the LF, except that the bony column rotation is more pronounced.

RF dorsal: Flaring is mostly confined to the medial wall. Due to the lateral heel being run slightly more forward, and appearing to be slightly higher, the entire hoof capsule is tending to rotate subtly inward.

RF sole: Same general discussion as the LF. Less overgrown frog material overhanging the heels and collateral grooves.

May should be in boots and pads at any time she isn't on soft footing. Any boots should have an aggressive bevel added to the treads of both the toes and heels . More info here:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/BootArticle.htm

https://www.hoofrehab.com/GloveMod.html

Padded boots provide both protection for her thin soles and pressure-and-release to help stimulate blood flow and generation of more sole.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Question on thyroid and Mad Barn Amino Trace

Sandy
 

I fear it may be the same here but gotta try I guess.

Sandy

On 3/11/2021 2:10 PM, Cheryl Oickle wrote:

My horse would NOT eat the amino trace. She could sniff out even a couple of pellets. I tried and tried. She will take the Omeity p from Mad Barn though.



--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063
_._,_._,_



--
Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Minis with laminitis/cushings
2021


Re: Question on thyroid and Mad Barn Amino Trace

Sandy
 

Thanks for the info Trisha - interesting on the diapers.  lol   I did buy it from a chiropractor who works with horses and dogs and yes he may be able to help me with using it for that (It's a Vetrolaser).  Maybe I'll e-mail him to see.

Sandy

On 3/11/2021 1:21 PM, Trisha DePietro wrote:

Hi Sandy. Red light therapy can be used on the TING points of the hooves. I do not believe there is any research on if it helps with laminitis inflammation or laminitic pain specifically. I do not think it would hurt them. But you would have to try it and see how it goes. Not sure which Red light you are using, but the folks who sell them are helpfull with anecdotal information and may have some research on the effects on laminitis. IF you want to relieve pain, I would support their little hooves with baby diapers cut to create a pad and duct tape them to their feet....that should give them some support and its cheap and easy to do. 

Sorry I can't help with the thyroid information. I too like to try natural remedies, but during a crisis I prefer to get my horses comfortable first with "western" medicine and then combine the "eastern" medicine after stabilization to maintain and enhance.


--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder
_._,_._,_



--
Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Minis with laminitis/cushings
2021


Re: Question on thyroid and Mad Barn Amino Trace

Sandy
 

I will continue it and hope she maybe gets used to it and eats it better.  She refused it but it's new so .....

Sandy

On 3/11/2021 1:21 PM, jmc wrote:

I've been using AT+ for a little over a year now. My horse eats it, no problem, in his soup (I only soak the cubes, at dinner I add the supps and more water)

The mini mules used to eat it no problem. We lost one in November, but the remaining mini mule ate it fine until about a month ago - but the volume of her meal is much less because she won't eat wet feed (I skim the top layer of soaked cubes for her). Im currently trying to find a way to get her to eat it consistently.
--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386
_._,_._,_



--
Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Minis with laminitis/cushings
2021


New diagnosis of EMS looking for guidance

Casey76
 

Hi everyone!

I’m currently a long-distance horse mum, with my mare being 300 miles away so she can live 24/7 on a multi-surface track and no grass.

I’ll get her case study updated ASAP.

potted history:

Tartine is PSSM n/P1 and has been in a forage only diet since I bought her 8 years ago.  She is now 13 years old.

In 2019 we made the move from France to the UK, thought I’m up on the NE coast, and she is in Wales.  Although I get regular updates and photos from the yard owner, I haven’t actually seen her for 2 years.

in the time since she has moved to Wales her PSSM has really improved, and she hasn’t had any major flares since.

Her feet have remained excellent, but she wears scoot boots for longer road hacks, because the tracks she works on are very abrasive.

She is currently ridden 3-4 times a week for 1-3 hours up and down forestry tracks in very hilly country.

But (and isn’t there always a but?) she has really struggled with her weight, despite being 95% grass free, and muzzled from about April to October to stop her fence surfing as much as possible.

Due to a persistent round belly, and seeming inability to lose weight despite dietary measures, she was tested for PPID and EMS yesterday.  ACTH was normal (17.5pg/ml), but insulin was high (35.8mIU/L) and she was diagnosed with insulin dysregulation.

The current plan is to move her onto a separate part of the track with a couple of friends, reduce the overall size of the communal hay nets, introduce oat straw as a partial hay replacer and slowly increase the intensity of her current exercise.

Phew... just as I thought things were going swimmingly...

Any advice, or even support would be very much appreciated.

thank you!
--
Katrina

 

Mar 2017, Alsace, France

Tartine Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Katrina,%20Tartine%20and%20Blitz

Tartine Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4725

Blitz (non-IR) foot photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=4743&p=Name,,,50,2,0,0 



Re: Seasonal hormonal peak and hoof sensitivity

jessica skene
 

Awsome! thanks Dr. Kellon
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 14 years old, historic of founder and Laminitis, IR / EMS

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory2019.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf


Re: Seasonal hormonal peak and hoof sensitivity

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

March or March and April only since she is fine in summer. Go with the upper dosage suggestion but two weeks before you plan to stop taper it off by going to half dose for one week and 1/4 dose for one week, then stop.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dr Kellon Invokana and Lipemia - urgent

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Nancy will probably update you herself when she can but the news from UC Davis is that he is improving on blood work and doing well, eating well.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: No Laminitis Conference question

Nancy C
 

Hi Trisha

Happy to have you send an announcement so she can mark the dates.  I do not have a veterinarian invite compiled as of yet.

There are two things they need to know. 

  1. There are 18 AAVSB RACE credits for $250.
  2. This is a LIVE event, so she' has to be "in the room" to get the credits. While there will be recordings available to all attendees for a period of time post conference,  there are no On Demand CE Credit sessions for vet pros.

On a related note for hoof pros: we received the OK for 20 CE credits for members of Progressive Hoof Care Professionals.  Awaiting similar from Professional Farriers Association.

Thanks for thinking of this, Trisha.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room

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