Date   

New case history posted

jjcaserta@...
 

I feel like I am always playing catch up with my pinto mare who had her first episode of laminitis in spring of 2011.  I have learned a lot since then.  With that first episode, I took her off spring pasture, and kept her in a dry lot on grass hay and that seemed to resolve the problem until 2015 when she was showing evidence of laminitis in the fall on grass hay.  I was not testing my hay at that time.  I now test my hay every year and make sure I have <10% NSC, feeding mainly Teff hay +California Trace +iodized salt.  Aspen is only on dry lot.  She is given exercise when she is not lame.  She has developed a pattern the last 3 years of having a laminitis flare every January.  January 2019 she was started on Prascend for TRH stim test with an equivocal ACTH level.  Each fall and winter her Prascend dose has been increased and she is now taking Prascend 4mg per day.  She is symptomatically improving as evidenced by laying down less and is moving from hay pile to hay pile in the dry lot, but she is still stiff and stilted in her movement.  She also shows more features of PPID such as not shedding her coat, long hair, and sweating.
-I would like help with how often to adjust the Prascend and how high the dose can go?
-How are people monitoring response to medication?  Should I be hoping that her hair coat sheds normally and that her regional adiposity reverses?  How else to measure response to Prascend?
-Gabapentin was also started in January with the thought that maybe she is having neuropathic pain; it has helped modestly.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Aspen/Aspen%20Case%20History.pdf
--
Jennifer C in WA 2021


Re: Help for my mini in IR battle

 

Hi Anne,
I think we could all use a mentor occasionally and we’re here to help.  I may be even closer than you could imagine.  I live in Vermont as well and I believe your name is familiar.  My job at this point is to send you our group welcome with lots of included information.  We’ll be expecting you to fill out a case history in as much detail as possible as we won’t be there in person and you need to provide the case history and photos as a ‘go between’.  If it seems a bit overwhelming, it did to me at first as well.  It will get easier.  Once you share more details, I’m sure there will be lots of suggestions to help you and the mini.

Not knowing where you are in your ‘IR battle’, we recommend the emergency diet to start.  Soaked hay (1 hr cold or 1/2 hour hot, then rinsed), fed in the appropriate amount for your mini in a small hole net and supplemented with flax, Mg, salt and Vitamin E.  This will continue until you have a hay test done by wet chemistry which will tell you whether or not the hay is safe in terms of sugars and starches to feed dry.  You will also be able to determine, with some help, what minerals are needed to balance the hay.  The hay I purchase locally has generally been safe and easy to balance so here’s hoping yours will be as well.

Our program revolves around Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise, which you will see referred to here as DDT/E.  The exercise comes much later, as dictated by your mini.  If you haven’t had bloodwork done as part of the diagnosis, you should plan to do that.  You’ll get the most accurate results for diagnostic purposes by NOT fasting and choosing a day such as the few warmer ones we’ve had recently.  The test should include insulin, glucose and most likely ACTH, unless we’re dealing with a youngster.  It should go to Cornell for analysis, which yours most likely will anyway.

The trim is often in need of attention in making the horse comfortable.  You can’t post photos here but you can on our Case History group and we have volunteers here who are very qualified to guide you in what changes might be most beneficial.

What follows in the Official ECIR Group Welcome with all the information I promised.  Don’t hesitate to ask questions after reading it as that’s where our help comes in.


Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Dr Kellon Invokana and Lipemia - urgent

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi everyone. Thanks for the healing thoughts and prayers.

Vinnie is stable. I wasn't able to see him this evening when I dropped off all his food and supps n stuff due to covid rules. But I did see an image of my boy looking a little pekid. 

I will post more tomorrow but in essence Vinnie presented as a gas colic yesterday evening and after being unable to stabilize him plus him acting just off, and in light of the chem we got back showing extremely high triglycerides we decided to haul to Davis.

They ruled out colic right away and were concerned that his lactate and triglycerides were so high and recommended hospitalization. I spent time going in depth about what we have been dealing with metabolically in the last two years and left for the night.

This morning I got word that with IV fluids lactate levels were back to normal and he was chipper and eating. The plan for the day was to add glucose by IV very slowly to reduce triglycerides. Obviously concerned because of metabolics.and there was no plan in place to monitor insulin. 🙄

I.won't go onto all the details as my mind is swirling a bit, but this evening i was told they had taken Vinnie off all his metabolic meds ( invokana, prascend, and thyrol) which was not what I agreed to and I am extremely worried about a laminitic event .  I had only agreed to stopping invokana temporarily and restarting at a lower dose; as we hypothesize that perhaps the higher dose was what put Vinnie into lipemia.  Dr Kellon can explain the latter more completely than I.

The Davis team feels that their main goal is to save Vinnies life by reducing triglycerides and send him home for us to deal with the metabolics.  I implored the doc to at least start prascend and he said that he may at. 50 which is half the dose he was getting. His reason is it can cause inappetance and this can negatively impact triglycerides. He was not willing to administer APF. Ugh! Worried!

That being said; There was some better news today,  we got the metabolics panel back that was taken 3/8 and Vinnie's insulin was 30 and acth 19  which is awesome and hopefully with this being in this range will take time to increase while not on meds.  

I am worried... but hopeful... more to come tomorrow.  Xx Nancy


--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: IR + Arthritis help

Mary T
 

Hi Kinsey,

My mare, Ally, has both PPID & EMS.  She was diagnosed with arthritis in both hocks December 2020.  Because of her PPID, steroids are contra-indicated as they will cause laminitis and founder—so my vet injected her hocks with platelet rich plasma (PRP), an autologous (horse’s own serum) product that is safe for PPID & EMS—it won’t cause laminitis.  Ally responded well to the PRP and is comfortable & sound when ridden lightly, which was our goal at age 25.
--
Mara & Ally
2006 PNW


Re: Dr Kellon Invokana and Lipemia - urgent

Lynn
 

Continue prayers for you Nancy and Vinnie. Hang in there! Glad to hear positive news from UC Davis. 
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Help for my mini in IR battle

Seabay@...
 

I could use a "mentor" in my fight for my mini's IR battle. If anyone can help, I'd so appreciate it. Thank you.
--
Anne DeHaven vt 2021


Re: Pain Relief for IR PPID mini

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Marsha,

It would be great if you could post pictures of Buzzy now that he finally has had a trim.  Please make sure if you take pictures that you use a sock or vetwrap to get all the hair off his coronary band so you can see the entire foot.

As far as the Devil's Claw you can use Phytoquench pellets with Devil's Claw as a pain killer for him instead of the Equioxx.  I believe Dr. Kellon already addressed your question on the J-herb.  Information on dosing: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Jiaogulan,%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support,%20AAKG%20and%20Supps/Jiaogulan%20Doses%20and%20Precautions.pdf




Re: Question on thyroid and Mad Barn Amino Trace

 

On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 02:10 PM, Sandy wrote:
have to get some Vit E oil (do you all use this even if it's in the vit/min mix?).  The mares are around 325-350 lbs.
At 350 pounds, your mares weigh roughly 159 kg and need about 318 IU of Vitamin E daily (2 IU/kg). Rounding up to 400 IU is fine, too.

For all hay diets, we add Vitamin E in a form that is bioavailable. Vitamin E should be mixed into contact with oil, dissolved in oil, or micellized. If you're trying to economize, you might want to do price comparisons of different Vitamin E options instead of Vitamin E oil. Gel caps are the most convenient and widely available in retail stores. You'd feed one 400 IU gel cap/day/mare. It doesn't get easier than that.
Other options:
Uckele Liquid E    highly palatable, you'd need 1/8 teaspoon/day for each mare.
powdered Vitamin E from MyBestHorse.com that you mix in less than a teaspoon of oil at feed time.
Emcelle Tocopherol Vitamin E Liquid,  a micellized Vitamin E, a bit less than 3/4 of a ml for each of your minis with no oil required.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: CVS vitamin E capsules -- bad smell?

millionairess1989
 

Hi Susan,

I've used CVS vitamin e capsules for the almost 10 years that Mill has been PPID. There's never been a problem for me until my last purchase a few weeks ago. An almost rancid smelling odor was apparent the minute that I opened the bottles. They were 2 different quantities with expirations in 2023 and 2024. I had no problem returning them for a refund. The labels on the bottles state there is a money back guarantee. I've since ordered from Swanson Vitamins.
--
Jennifer in Middle TN  2010
 Mill 31 yrs Arabian-PPID, IR & Pacemaker Dependent
Jack 21 yrs TN Walker- IR & RAO

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Millionairess

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=831

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Jack-TN%20Walker


IR + Arthritis help

Kinsey
 

Hello,

Thank you so much to this group, Bucky has been doing well on his recovery from his mild laminitis episode back in October/November. He has been sound regarding the laminitis issues and his IR is under control with the ECIR protocols.

A separate issue has now come up - he is lame in his RH. I had the vet out today to take radiographs and turns out he has a small fracture in his coffin bone and severe arthritis in his hock (only radiographed the RH hock, but suspect it is probably similar in his LH as well). The vet made some recommendations as far as course of treatment goes but I am holding off on starting anything until I make sure everything will be ok relative to him having EMS.

So, my questions are:

  • EQUIOXX / The vet prescribed Equioxx for long-term use (he is on Jiaogulan now, I know Equioxx is an NSAID so I'm assuming I should take him off the Jiaogulan for now??) Vet made it seem like the Equioxx will likely be a life-long medication.
  • JOINT SUPPLEMENTS / Vet suggestions: Platinum Performance CJ (Complete Joint) or Cosequin ASU. Are these ok for an ECIR horse to get?
  • INJECTIONS / Vet's suggestions: Hock steroid injections (she noted that it may trigger laminitis so probably not the best choice), Adequan injections (1 injection 4 days in a row biannually), or Noltrex injections

If anyone has any help or suggestions to offer it would be much appreciated as well!

Thank you,
Kinsey

--
Kinsey in GA 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kinsey%20and%20Bucky
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257041


Re: New diagnosis of EMS looking for guidance

 

Katrina, do you have any word processing capabilities?  I think there are some open source software that works, such as Apache Open Office and Libre Office.  The trick is to find one that will open your previous case history document and allow you to edit.  Once you finish it, please convert to pdf so it will be readable by others.  Let us know if you need help.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: New diagnosis of EMS looking for guidance

Casey76
 

I’ll do my best to update the case history tomorrow,  but I don’t have access to MS Word.

and yes, everything is out dated, because since her insulin came back OK in 2017, I haven’t been posting.

(updated link to case history)
--
Katrina

 

Mar 2017, Alsace, France

Tartine Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Katrina,%20Tartine%20and%20Blitz/Tartine%20Case%20History.doc

Tartine Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4725

Blitz (non-IR) foot photos https://ecir.groups.io/g/Hoof/album?id=4743&p=Name,,,50,2,0,0 



Re: New diagnosis of EMS looking for guidance

 

Hi Katrina,
I went to have a look at Tartine’s case history and found that your link needs some help.  The link takes me to the general Case History files.  You could follow the link there and then make a folder titled Katrina and Tartine.  Once you have the folder set up go to your case history files here and move them into the folder you just made.  Then you can change the link in your signature to the new folder address.  That way, we’ll be able to see new entries as you make them.  Everything is quite outdated there now.

I would definitely have the straw tested.  Some straws test higher in sugars and starches than the hay it’s replacing.  And, while they’re doing that, they should get the hay tested as well.  It sounds like she’s getting lots of exercise and that’s what’s been keeping her insulin low enough to be out of the danger zone.  A closed muzzle, if that’s not what she’s already in, would be a big help.
--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Pain Relief for IR PPID mini

Buzz
 

Buzzy had his first trim on Monday since having his laminitic episode in Dec, as well as a diagnosis of IR,  in addition to his PPID. He is fortunately under the care of excellent trimmers with  Dr. Bowker assisting them. I am so grateful for the wonderful team we have established to save Buzzy!  He is quite sore given the condition he was in and his recent trim.  I gave him equiox for 2 days prior to his trim and have continued with it  for 2 days since.  I really want to get him off the Equiox and onto perhaps Devil's Claw.  I have the Plus, however find it is not appropriate due to the yucca. So, just Devil's Claw? Is there anything else that is safe for him as he is presently on metformin and .75 mg  prascend?  I also am getting low on his Laminox, however have 2 bags of J Herb.  Can I use those rather than ordering more Laminox at this time?  If so, what would be his appropriate dose of J Herb, he is 310 lbs as of yestereday. I want to be sure we are doing everything to bring this little guy back to soundness!  Once again, thank you for your help! Without that we would never stand a chance of saving Buzzy!
--
Marsha and Dame - Buzzy TN 2019

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Dame%20-%20Buzzy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258797


Re: Lavinia Request for Mark Ups Please

lfitz66
 

I'm so sorry, I didn't see this message until now. I so appreciate the mark ups and advice you sent.
--
Leigh and May
Michigan
Joined 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Leigh%20and%20May
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260799


Re: Jiaogulan source

riggslippert@...
 

Hi Maria,

I am using a jiaogulan extract I get from Amazon because Cadet absolutely refuses to eat the powder.  Each capsule is supposed to contain 4100 mg equivalent as a 10:1 extract.  I give him 3/day, spaced out through the day.  His gums are more pink to me and the farrier thinks she can see the effect in his feet.  Hope this helps.
--
Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102




Re: Question on thyroid and Mad Barn Amino Trace

Sandy
 

Ok sounds good - have to get some Vit E oil (do you all use this even if it's in the vit/min mix?).  The mares are around 325-350 lbs.   They have never gotten sweet feed, only 1/4 cup of a pelleted ration balancer (probably they are lacking things).

Yes on the hypothyroidism and why I was asking.  I feel they are probably lacking in nutrients and with the cushing's and IR etc it created a problem with the thyroid.  I feel like maybe I should wait on using the thyroxine as I'm not sure if when you start it, you can stop.  I wish vets (and doctors) would understand the need for full thyroid panels and not just T4 ...... went through this with dogs and with myself as well.

Thanks for the info.  So much to learn ;-)

Sandy

On 3/11/2021 2:47 PM, Cass in NorCal wrote:

Sandy,
The smart way to start minerals is to make sure your mares will eat the carrier first. Dampen it just slightly, add a teaspoon salt, and feed it instead of "grain." Once that's accepted, add in stabilized ground flax seed. Horses generally like it. Once that's accepted, add in Vitamin E gel caps with oil. Without a case history, I don't know the weight of your mares, but 1000 IU of Vitamin E in gel caps with oil would be safe. If you're using 400 IU gel caps, then you need to add 3. Once that's accepted....you get the idea. Go slowly. After Amino Trace arrives, add it a teaspoon at a time. Horses used to sweet feed can take a while a accept safe carriers. I haven't read through all your posts to scrape up the details of your mares' weights and your feeds, so I'm not sure what carriers you're using. A case history would be a help.

As for hypothyroidism, two issues occur often. One is that horses haven't been fed adequate Iodine and Selenium in the diet. Both are required by the thyroid gland to operate normally. The second is that severe EMS or PPID (or other disease) can affect the thyroid function, causing a condition called Euthyroid Sick Syndrome. Correct the underlying nutritional and health issue, and thyroid levels normalize. Here's a message from Dr Kellon explaining Euthyroid Sick Syndrome: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/256520 Bottom line: get your mares the essential nutrients they require and control their metabolic conditions. If and when you're ready to recheck thyroid function, post again to learn the details of better thyroid tests than T4 alone. My Diamond arrived with very low whole blood selenium and who knows what level for prior iodine supplementation. Her T4 thyroid test was very very low, 0.164 when the normal range is 1-3 ug/dl.  Thyroid tests were normal after 9 months of proper nutrition.

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos
_._,_._,_



--
Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Minis with laminitis/cushings
2021


Re: Lavinia Request for Mark Ups Please

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Leigh,

I've added mark-ups to May's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260799

Her trim is generally a lot better than too many of the trims we see here. Comparing the past rads to the current ones, however, show that May has had some bony column rotation continuously from 2018 to the present. The trims may have never fully addressed the problem or she continues to experience sub-clinical laminitis on a regular basis that keeps causing rotation, worsening sinking and thinning of her soles. It's a vicious cycle. Her toes continue to remain too far out ahead of where they need to be and her heels are somewhat underrun. As you've noticed, there is wall flaring that is growing out but the laminar wedge has been consistently present. Trim needs to back up the toes and remove the wall flares, then continue to keep the toes backed up while encouraging the heels to move back so they support her bony column properly. Preserving all the sole she has remains a priority, as does getting those insulin levels down so that the laminitis stops continuing to damage her connections. Know you've been stymied on that front by the vet's preferences but hope you will be able to get some cooperation on that front soon.

LF lateral composite: On the rad, the pink line shows how the bony column should align, while the purple line follows the actual alignment. Note how the purple line bulges slightly ahead of the pink line, indicating bony column rotation. The pink line ends where the bony column needs the breakover to be. This point happens to be below the current sole depth but behind where the horizontal toe length currently ends. Green line follows the angle of the new, healthier growth coming in below the coronary band toward the ground and runs parallel to the pink line. Blue line is where the toe needs to backed up to, with the blue X denoting the excess toe length. Red line denotes NOTHING gets removed from the bottom of the foot in this area as it's already too short/thin. Lime line shows that the heels need to be lowered a bit to assist in correcting the rotation by allowing the rear of the coffin bone to relax downward. Yellow line #1 runs thru the coronary band, #2 points to the extensor process. The two should overlap - the distance between them denotes the amount of sinking. Orange line shows where the heels should be located. Note this line runs parallel to the pink and green lines.
On the photo, the green line is the same as on the rad. It's only a visual marker, not a trim line. Blue area corresponds to the blue X on the rad. Orange line is again where you are looking to eentually coax the heels to be.

LF dorsal: Green lines follow the angle of the healthier new growth down to the ground. Blue areas are the flared material that can be completely removed in the lower 1/3 of the hoof capsule. Foot appears to be slightly laterally high as well (or medially short). The distinction is important as you can lower a too-tall wall but don't lower a correct wall to match a too-short side. Compare both collateral groove depths to each other to see if that is the case. If one is deeper than the other, then you need to work toward fixing the disparity:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Balance.html

LF sole: Blue solid line is where the outer perimeter of the hoof should be when all flaring and wedge material is gone. Blue hashed areas correspond to the blue on the rad along the toe and the blue on the dorsal view. To help the heels stand up more upright, bevel the outer wall out of weight bearing, plus add a rocker to the back of both heels. Orange squares are where the weight bearing should be once you've done that. Yellow hashes are along areas of excess forg that is overhanging the collateral grooves and covering the backs of the heels - it can be trimmed away. Leave the rest of the frog alone. Here are some links to more discussion on the reasons for the recommendations:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Breakover.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

RF lateral composite: Same guidelines as the LF, except that the bony column rotation is more pronounced.

RF dorsal: Flaring is mostly confined to the medial wall. Due to the lateral heel being run slightly more forward, and appearing to be slightly higher, the entire hoof capsule is tending to rotate subtly inward.

RF sole: Same general discussion as the LF. Less overgrown frog material overhanging the heels and collateral grooves.

May should be in boots and pads at any time she isn't on soft footing. Any boots should have an aggressive bevel added to the treads of both the toes and heels . More info here:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/BootArticle.htm

https://www.hoofrehab.com/GloveMod.html

Padded boots provide both protection for her thin soles and pressure-and-release to help stimulate blood flow and generation of more sole.

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Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Question on thyroid and Mad Barn Amino Trace

Sandy
 

I fear it may be the same here but gotta try I guess.

Sandy

On 3/11/2021 2:10 PM, Cheryl Oickle wrote:

My horse would NOT eat the amino trace. She could sniff out even a couple of pellets. I tried and tried. She will take the Omeity p from Mad Barn though.



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Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063
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Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Minis with laminitis/cushings
2021


Re: Question on thyroid and Mad Barn Amino Trace

Sandy
 

Thanks for the info Trisha - interesting on the diapers.  lol   I did buy it from a chiropractor who works with horses and dogs and yes he may be able to help me with using it for that (It's a Vetrolaser).  Maybe I'll e-mail him to see.

Sandy

On 3/11/2021 1:21 PM, Trisha DePietro wrote:

Hi Sandy. Red light therapy can be used on the TING points of the hooves. I do not believe there is any research on if it helps with laminitis inflammation or laminitic pain specifically. I do not think it would hurt them. But you would have to try it and see how it goes. Not sure which Red light you are using, but the folks who sell them are helpfull with anecdotal information and may have some research on the effects on laminitis. IF you want to relieve pain, I would support their little hooves with baby diapers cut to create a pad and duct tape them to their feet....that should give them some support and its cheap and easy to do. 

Sorry I can't help with the thyroid information. I too like to try natural remedies, but during a crisis I prefer to get my horses comfortable first with "western" medicine and then combine the "eastern" medicine after stabilization to maintain and enhance.


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Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder
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Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Minis with laminitis/cushings
2021

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