Date   

Re: Sandy - Crystal Blue

Cindy Giovanetti
 

You tell your vet that you’re following the ECIR protocol, and ECIR recommends that you dose to results, not to the pony’s size.  And then you hope he’s flexible and maybe willing to read some of the ECIR material.

 

My vet is not the curious type.  I can’t imagine he’d take the time to join ECIR and study the program.  But when I explained to him that I was following this protocol and that it was run by a vet, etc., he has been willing to prescribe for me what I need.

 

Cindy


--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/
History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Re: New diagnosis of EMS looking for guidance

Cindy Giovanetti
 

Katrina, your photos, your facility and track, and your horse look amazing!

 

Cindy


--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/
History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Re: NEW MEMBER-- Need some help!

jodie@...
 

Wow  Sherry, this is extremely helpful! And interesting that it's possible to tell what the cause is by looking at the sheath.

We are going to friends' for dinner, so I'll have to fill out Harley's case history tomorrow. 

Thanks to you and Trisha for responding so quickly. What an amazing resource this board is. A friend told me about it. Several years ago you all helped her save one of her Haflingers.

Enjoy your evening,

Jodie
--
Jodie Davis at the Cuckoo Clock Factory on the farm in Hickory Flat, North Georgia 2020


Re: NEW MEMBER-- Need some help!

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jodie,

Assuming that Harley has Squamous Cell Carcinoma are you sure it's localized to only his penis and sheath area?  We have another member here who was fighting a similar battle with her horse and it turned out many of the things that might have been IR/PPID related were actually an issue related to the cancer. 

I know you've gotten the case history information and it would be really helpful for us if you could take pictures of Harley's sheath (in addition to the usual leg/foot pictures).  From what I've seen there's a very noticeable difference between a SCC swollen sheath (I have a friend with a mid-20's TWH gelding who has it) and an IR swollen sheath. So it could be IR (or PPID) but hard to say without bloodwork to confirm - that's something to definitely put on the list for the vet tomorrow just to get a handle on his status.

Trisha already addressed your diet questions - I'd hold off on any changes until you figure out how much he weighs vs how much he should weigh, what his test results indicate, etc.

Welcome to the group!



Re: Strange Behavior & Possible Misdiagnosis

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rachel,

Unlikely that it's a side effect of the pergolide after so many months but anything is possible.  I will note that her baseline ACTH in August was 290 so having her current level down to 18.3 is very good.  If she were mine I would have a Lyme titer done and you may want to do an eyesight check on her if she's running in to things.  I've seen blindness as a side effect of untreated PPID and my vet noted that she's seen horses go blind from Lyme.  This last bout I treated my gelding for he stopped eating his normal grain which wasn't why I had him tested for Lyme, but he did start eating it again about 3 weeks into the Doxy so that's now another one of my 'if this happens, think about Lyme' things. 

It may not be Lyme but since you noted in the CH that she did get a reaction to what the vet believed to be ticks in November it's worth ruling it out.



Re: Strange Behavior & Possible Misdiagnosis

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Rachel. Welcome to the group. It looks like you joined back in 2020 and may not have received our welcome letter, so I attached it for your review.   So....USUALLY the pergolide veil is noticed when the horse is becoming adjusted to the new medication. I read through your case history and your detailed notes ( nicely done!) So, I can't explain the change in behavior.  I am sure other members will chime in....:) 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

 

--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: Strange Behavior & Possible Misdiagnosis

Frances C.
 

I've seen this sort of strange behavior too in my IR/PPID/DSLD mare. especially gazing off into space. I call this thing SENILITY. What is the cause? PPID in itself? Pergolide? or simply aging? I've known old horses but normal every every other aspect show the same symptoms (you know - walking into a room and then having to ask yourself "What the hell did I come in here for? Oh yes, now I remember.") I don't suppose horses are exempt from from the dementia that plagues us humans. You could check her eyesight by flicking your hand by her face and see if there is a normal response to rule out the spooking in stall.
-- .
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: NEW MEMBER-- Need some help!

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Jodie. You are in the right place! Here is a quick "to do list" and then what follows is our welcome letter for new members...You will probably want to focus on the diet piece first and then the testing process for Cushings/ IR. 

1. weigh your horse with a weight tape and then you should be feeding 2% of his current body weight in pounds. So, if he is 1000 pounds feed 20 pounds per day. You have to weigh the hay. I use a cheap fish weigh scale and its very accurate.
2. Steaming will not remove any excess sugars in your hay. But, soaking the hay in cold water for one hour or hot water for a 1/2 hour can remove up to 30% sugars. There is more information on this in your welcome letter.
3. Consider getting your hay tested for its nutritional content and sugar and starch content. 
4. Insulin Resistence and PPID (Cushings) share some similar symptoms. So, I would look at the testing process posted and the specific handling required of the testing to get the most accurate results. 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

 
 
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: Finding Prascend

 

Hi Maria

Bova have told me they are able to export to most EU countries - it will depend on your veterinary medicines regulatory body in Spain (we are struggling to get it into France but we're not giving up).  I've given some details here: http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ppid-faq/obtaining-bova-pergolide-paste.  If you find out anything about importing into Spain, please do let me know if I can add information that will help others in Spain.  The Bova pergolide paste comes in 50 mg/250 ml syringes, with 0.2 mg increments of pergolide (5 ml paste = 1 mg pergolide), and is molasses-flavoured but does not contain molasses.  Stability is 12 months.  I have been told that the price should be similar to the UK price for Prascend.  It is only available through vets because it is not licensed - you would have to ask your vet to contact Bova UK.  

 

I've just had a delivery of Prascend to France from Viovet, which I kept below what I believe to be the no import charge value limit of 150 euros, but I was charged French VAT @ 20% plus an administration fee (18 euros) by the carrier UPS, which apparently shouldn't have happened as it was sent as VAT paid in the UK so should not have been taxed again.  Viovet told me to get a receipt for the VAT that I paid in France from the UPS driver and hopefully they will be able to refund the VAT paid in the UK, but I won't see my 18 euros again.  My vet in France offered me a pretty good price on Prascend (the best I've seen in France but still more than the Viovet price) and next time I may buy it from her to save all the uncertainty and stress of trying to get it across borders now.  It's a nightmare - and one that I certainly didn't vote for!

 

Andrea 

The Laminitis Site

France/UK Jan 2010


Re: Finding Prascend

Maxine McArthur
 

Sorry, Maria. Try “Pergoquin”. Made by Richters in Australia. Next time I’ll spell check! 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


NEW MEMBER-- Need some help!

jodie@...
 

The vet is coming in the morning, but I need some guidance.

My apologies for not setting up a profile for my horse yet, but I just need to know how to help my horse tonight.

Harley 15.2 Tennessee Walking Horse 21 or 22
I've had him for over 10 years now. Rock solid good guy.

We've been fighting penis cancer about 1 1/2 years. Surgery to remove a growth went great. Done a couple of rounds of chemo to keep it at bay. So in January when I saw his sheath start to swell I called the vet and we decided to do another round of chemo as it was time anyway. She thought perhaps being dirty (penis cancer makes for a lot of smegma) getting him cleaned and then treated would take care of it. The chemo (cream) ended in early March. After the first chemo his sheath had swollen, so I waited four weeks. It hadn't gone down. So I called first thing last week to have her come out. She'll be here in tomorrow first visit of the day.

At the end of the week I noticed he was losing top line, his hips sticking out a bit. Or was I imagining it? A friend came by. She verified it. She also mentioned his chewing. He had his teeth done last year in May during his annual. I'll have the vet check that. Is he having trouble chewing hay?

My two horses live free, together. I took out the divider in three stalls, and opened up the aisle to them. Put up fencing between the barn and the arena that's 14 feet away to connect them. That leads to a woodlot. So they come and go 24/7.

My mare could easily go the IR route (which is why I joined here in 2020 to understand it) so once the grass starts growing I reduce their pasture time significantly. But over the winter I let them stay out 3 or even 5 hours. During the winter they get bored, obviously not enough to eat, so I put hay out. Which they clean up.

But now looking back I'm thinking... As soon as the New Year hits here spring perks up. Even though it doesn't look like there's much of anything to eat in the pasture, perhaps it was too much for him -- they were eating super sugary first growth as fast as it came up. It hasn't been an issue (observable anyway -- maybe there was!) in the past so I was waiting as I normally do for about now when the grass starts growing observably to cut them way back.

I don't know how I made the connection, but something I read put weight loss together with IR. Which led me here. I had thought it was always weight gain. Aha! Here I read people reporting that the their first clue to an IR flare up is a swollen sheath. Double AHA! I cut them back to one hour a day. Went out and got some flax. Switched them from soaked alfalfa pellets (he was scoped several years ago and had ulcers, thus the alfalfa)  to a mix of Timothy and Beet pulp pellets, soaked. That was Monday.

Yesterday, is he walking slowly or is it just me? NO MORE GRASS!!! 

I've separated them in the barn the past two nights. I didn't think to monitor his hay consumption. I assumed he was eating because I see him do so. Today I am paying attention. He walked through his poop last night, so I don't know exactly how many he did, but I'd guess 4 whereas Delight had seven in her area. Makes me think he's not getting enough hay.

So, my question to get us through tonight to the vet visit tomorrow morning is, should I ramp up his beet pulp/ timothy?

Feed:
Bermuda hay free choice, steamed
Was soaked alfalfa now BP/Timothy pellets (to approximate the Canadian pellets recommended here) 1# twice a day
with 2 scoops Cal Trace per day
2T iodized salt per day
Mag oxide 1 t per day

They also have a big white salt block

After diving in here I have now added:
2,000 IU Vitamin E gel caps
1/2 c Triple Crown Flax

And I ordered spirulina and Chondroitin -- so excited to learn about these here!

Should I up the soaked pellets, give him an extra helping... ????

Thanks for any help offered!

Jodie

--
Jodie Davis at the Cuckoo Clock Factory on the farm in Hickory Flat, North Georgia 2020


Re: Pre/Pro-biotics

LJ Friedman
 

prebiotics  forco is good.  i have lots of it if needed in vista ca    pick up only
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse( over the rainbow) and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Is anyone in the UK using Invokana

LJ Friedman
 

hold harmless.   Your vet can draw up a letter that you sign. What it says is in legal terms that you cannot sue him malpractice etc. for anything connected to Invokana..  you release him of any liability connected to anything related to Invokana.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse( over the rainbow) and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Finding Prascend

Maria Duran
 

Hi Maxine,

I have searched for it and I have found something called Peloquin but nothing that is sold commercially. I haven´t found Bova in Europe but thank you because I didn´t know about it. It must be very expensive I guess.

Thanks a lot for the help :)

--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


Re: Is anyone in the UK using Invokana

LJ Friedman
 

If you search Invokana on this page you’ll see a horse had a health issue where checking triglycerides would have been helpful.  all horses starting invokana should test for triglycerides- before and continue to include triglycerides when you do labs.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse( over the rainbow) and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Secrets to getting horses to eat their salt?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Sharon,

They can, and some do - but most don't.  They either don't spend enough time licking, or the straight salt irritates small cuts in their mouth or irritates their stomach.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Secrets to getting horses to eat their salt?

Sharon Bice
 

So this brought up another thought I had when I went out to feed this a.m.... can the horses get all their salt from a salt block themselves? I’m guessing not???
Thx again for everyone’s great suggestions. :))
--
Sharon Bice
December 2020    Sandia Park, New Mexico

Taillight's Case History:  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Taillight%20Case%20History

Taillight's Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257590


Re: Secrets to getting horses to eat their salt?

Starshine Ranch
 

Hi Sharon,
I had the same problem so I added a bit more of the carrier... 1 heaping cup of Timothy pellets and to that I now give 1 heaping cup of LMF Low NSC (along with their cup of ground flaxseed) and they will now eat 1 Tbsp of salt mixed in.  I am sure going to try the applesauce trick to see if I can add more salt but at least they are getting 1 Tbsp.  Thanks for the applesauce idea, Alisa.
--
Linda in CA  2020  Midnight and Ostara


Re: Is anyone in the UK using Invokana

jenny.comish@...
 

Thanks for your reply. I know nothing about Invokana and it’s risks as the information has only been sent to my vet. Is testing for triglycerides something you do before using Invokana? Please can you explain by what you mean by a ‘hold harmless agreement’? 
--
Jenny Comish
England, UK
Dewi Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jenny%20Dewi
Dewi Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=257833


Re: Is anyone in the UK using Invokana

LJ Friedman
 

remember to test for triglycerides. offer your vet a hold harmless agreement regarding invokana?  
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse( over the rainbow) and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 

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