Date   

Re: New member looking for advice on baseline bloodwork #file-notice #photo-notice

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Alice,

If you have a small animal vet in your area who is willing to help you they should be able to draw the blood and prepare it for shipping to Cornell.  That would be preferable to hauling to the vet as that will cause the bloodwork results to be skewed.

As for Peanut - she's adorable but there is definitely too much of her to love so getting her diet dialed in is going to be very important in addition to making sure you have baseline bloodwork performed on her.  A normal weight for an equine would have them in the 4.5 - 5 range on the Hennecke scale.  A measurement of 6 is not normal and is an indication that there needs to be a weight reduction.  Looking at Peanut's pictures I'm guessing she's about 75lbs overweight so if she's 950lbs now and her ideal weight is closer to 875 you want to feed her 1.5% of her current weight or 2% of her ideal weight, whichever is greater.  That would be 17.5lbs a day TOTAL (Hay + concentrates). 

I'm guessing that since you say she's in a herd that the hay amount is actually a guess, not an actual measured amount she's being fed per day, is that correct?  As far as the grain, nothing Nutrena makes is suitable for an IR equine.  As noted in your welcome letter we recommend under 4% fat and under 10% ESC+starch - the Special Care is 7% Fat and the last time somebody submitted it to EquiAnalytical for testing it came back as over the 13% ESC+Starch indicated.  That result is here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/Nutrena%20Products/Nutrena%20SafeChoice%20Special%20Care%202020-09-16.pdf

Were she mine I'd treat her as IR even if you don't have bloodwork to confirm that.  That would include no grass turnout, no grain except what is needed to get her minerals into her and a measured amount of hay per day.  If she can't be on a dry lot she should be muzzled with a sealed muzzle when out so she can't graze.



Re: Uckele Pro Air Pellets Vs. Lung Eq

Jeanne Q
 

I would also appreciate any insight on this question also.  I have a mare with a cough.  I have just started her on the Lung EQ. 
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

jmc
 

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 12:55 PM, Nancy C wrote:
Sorry, but I know from experience, there will be folks in panic.

Yea, like me, since I use both products. Fortunately, I feed only about a pound of cubes between both Yankee and Red (first step is soak, second step is skim off the drier expanded stuff for Mini Fussy Mule, then stuff can be added. Sigh).

Concerned about the AT+ in particular, but both are a concern given Yankee still got a crest this winter, though less than in past years. Guess I'll have to spring for the ferritin panel if these numbers are confirmed. I'm reluctant to send in yet more tests, as it's likely I'm going to have to funnel some of my emergency fund into my own health, for a change.  Following this thread closely.
 
--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386


Re: TROUBLE UPLOADING .PDF VERSION OF CASE HISTORY

Maxine McArthur
 

Sue also wrote: 
Another question.....after reviewing the meds he is currently on - and I am tapering his doses of the Bute and Banamine - are there any conflicts that you can see with anything that will be included in Dakota's Emergency Diet....such as with the salt, Mag Oxide or Vit E ????  Thank you!!

There does not seem to be any conflict with the feed regime, no. 

And: 
Again, another question Maxine....after this I believe I will be all tapped out today...lol....
I had to buy magnesium oxide tablets (420 mg) to include in his emergency diet.  I ground them into a powder to be administered as directed at 1 tsp daily (he weighs approx 1,000.  The bottle says each tablet contains 253 mg of elemental magnesium per tablet.  Does that still check out to the equivalency needed for his daily dose of 1 tsp??  Am I doing the math correctly on this??  

Hi Sue
I think one teaspoon of mag oxide gives you approx 3 grams of elemental magnesium. If four of your tablets gives 1 gram, you would need to grind up 12 tablets to get 3 grams. Is that about how many you are grinding? 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: TROUBLE UPLOADING .PDF VERSION OF CASE HISTORY

Maxine McArthur
 

Sue wrote: 
Thank you for your VERY informative response.  As is probably well known to you, my mind is blown with my situation AND the cascade of information.  I am 68 yrs old, have had horses for 60 years, cared for them myself - always - and have never experienced PPID or IR.  Unfortunately, I am trying to bring back a sweet older gelding that was given to me 10 years ago as a retired "companion" to my active gelding who just lost the older, pasture ornament mare companion he had.  He (the current IR/PPID patient) is a stoic and kind old man, probably upwards of 30 yrs, I am not certain.
 

Anyway, I have updated several bits of information on his case history i.e. wt/amount of hay being fed, meds prescribed by vet, which in my haste to complete, I forgot to include.  I also have to update the Pergolide dosage, I did not have that handy and he was just placed on the dosage yesterday, so too early to tell any results.....but I will update as soon as I have his bottle in hand.

I have several questions regarding the "Emergency Diet" items, as simple is certainly best at this time...I have some items on hand, but will need to purchase a few.

 
1.  I have Timothy/Orchard on hand and can get some more orchard grass.....what is the best type of grass hay to obtain?  I have some Orchard/Alfalfa that I am feeding to some of the other horses.  I AM soaking the heck out of the hay that Dakota is receiving.
 
2.  Is regular iodized table salt acceptable??  (i.e. Morton)...best way to administer???
 
3.  Where can I get magnesium oxide (recommended brands, form, etc)....best way to administer???
 
4.  Vit E - where can I get acceptable Vit E and in what form - gel cap?  Best way to administer??
 
5.  Should I use soaked Triple Crown Timothy Natural Balancer Cubes as a carrier for the salt dose, Vit E dose, magnesium oxide dose, flax dose......kind of like the "old concoction" nightly bucket Dakota would receive (which WAS Triple crown SR feed - now discontinued - and hay pellets, all soaked.  I would use this as a carrier with any meds, supplements needed.
 
6.  Any ideas as to acceptable pill pockets I can use to make certain he is getting his Pergolide.....I tried to use a cucumber with a slit cut in it, which he took upon first try, but now he is playing with it and I do not want him to lose his Pergolide dose.  Something cheap, handy and edible is always best.  I also thought of getting salted peanuts in the shell, cracking it open and placing the Pergolide in the shell (with the peanuts) and feeding it by hand???
 
Any information you can provide is gold to me right now and thank you SO much for all you have provided,  I need now to get him on a routine to hopefully get him sorted out and also read, read, read here to digest this.  It will work out how it is supposed to.  I know he is aged, but in good shape.  I am willing to try my damndest to get this under control and give him a good quality of life.  Luckily, I have been doing some things right and feeding him some things that have probably helped him, such as good hay, flax, etc daily.  But now I will get strict with the emergency diet and get him feeling better.  If not, I am prepared to make a hard decision, but not before giving it the old college try!!
 
Most sincere thanks to you and all who put time and effort into this group!!  It is needed as I am seeing, with my OWN vet and farrier, although I love them and have never had a bad experience following their guidance, I can see where some of their information may not be best on this subject, so I must stay on top of it and take it all in and sort out what is going to work BEST for Dakota.....THAT is who needs the good results right now!!  I am retired and have the luxury to keep my horses here on my own farm, for which I am very grateful.  They are my daily work, it keeps me young!!  lol
 
Best regards,
 
Sue Ring and Dakota

Thanks for updating the CH, Sue, that makes it so much easier for people to look up your information and comment. Please add the information about the amount of pergolide in his capsules to the CH when you get the information. 
Regarding your questions:
1. Unfortunately there is no 'best' grass hay, as all grass hays can be high in sugar/starch depending on their growing conditions. However, at the moment I would keep soaking the timothy/orchard mix, as avoiding alfalfa would be best. Soaking is for one hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water, you don't have to soak longer. If you can test hay, even just the ESC and starch, before you buy a load, that is the best option, although not always available. 
2. Regular iodised salt is fine. No mineral additives, no molasses.
3. Magnesium oxide--I'm afraid I'll have to let our US members comment on sources, as I'm not local to you. You can do a messages search, too. 
4. VIt E--any human gel cap is fine, make sure they are in oil not gelatine, that's all. I add the capsules to a quarter cup of soyhull pellets and soak in warm water, which softens the gel caps. Some horses like to crunch them, but mine spits them out if they aren't softened. 
5. Triple Crown Timothy Natural Balancer Cubes as a carrier for the salt dose, Vit E dose, magnesium oxide dose, flax dose......kind of like the "old concoction" nightly bucket Dakota would receive (which WAS Triple crown SR feed - now discontinued - and hay pellets, all soaked.  I would use this as a carrier with any meds, supplements needed.
As the cubes are mineral balanced and safe carbs, this is an excellent option!
6. Rather than putting the pergolide in food, and risking him not getting it, many of us just dissolve it in a small syringe (about 5cc) in water and syringe it in the corner of the mouth, followed by a safe treat. Or, you can get empty gelatine capsules and put the pergolide capsule in there, and feed it in a treat--the gelcap seems to conceal the taste of the pergolide. The peanut shell is also an excellent option, good thinking! There are many good suggestions to get the pill down--messages search is your friend!

Dakota is a lucky fellow to have come to you. 


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Nancy C
 

I have had hay tests come back with lower iron that were identified as a possible risk.
I am sure you may have. 

You are feeding for an average horse, say 20 pounds per day, for several months.

Again, it is best to wait for the folks we need to hear from.

Thanks in advance for letting us put this to rest for now.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Nancy C, My note about Vinnie and starting odtbc was anecdotal that upon starting them I did notice a crest increase.

Odtbc was "not" related to the cause of hyperlipidemia as far as well know the cause of that was related to Invokana and possibly a too restrictive esc+starch diet.  We are working with Dr Kellon on this currently.

Back to the odtbc cubes, I am interested in learning if the iron poses a risk to us and if it is something I have to change/modify because Vinnie is obviously sensitive.

I have had hay tests come back with lower iron that were identified as a possible risk.

Thanks Nancy 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Sandra

ppm is mg/per kg.

ppmmg/kg 1 ppm = 1 mg/kg.

Excellent news that Scott and the nutritionist has looked over your full dietary intake.

If I were concerned about iron over load, I would want to know HOW tightly balanced is it, but we don't have info that your horse is iron overloaded.  Serum iron tests do not reveal that.  What you have is a snap shot of today -- the day it was taken.  Not iron overload.

Sorry, but I think that point was missed.

***
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Ideal weight

Kandace Krause
 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Weights%20and%20Measures/How%20to%20Find%20Ideal%20Body%20Weight.pdf

I am trying to detirmine if I am getting close to Ideal weight and where to go from here  I have been fired by vet clinic because I have questioned things the vet said that seemed to contradict what I found here.
I know I am due for new blood work for "K" but I don't have a vet to do so and I am a bit concerned about the results from the companion animal vet who did last tests.
The first one was impossibly low and the retest was higher than previous test, but all I got was a typed email with the numbers, not the actual sheet from lab showing results.
Note I am just weighing feed to do new CH update including last rads from trim and then reset of NANRIC Ultimates.  At that time "K" had more than 50% new sole growth and I felt optimistic that we were making good progress but I am not so sure now.  What I was told about leaving these devices on her feet was that the times failure to recover had been seen where the times when devices were removed too soon, before hoof walls were really ready to support horse and activity
Some specific questions I would ask an equine vet would be, if Insulin numbers have risen since ceasing Metformin, is it good to go back to it?
                                                                                                do some horses need Metformin for life and, if so, what kind of life do they really have?
                                                                                                Is it normal to have lameness still, with trim to where it is now?
Should be up in an hour.
Thanks for your patience and answers.
--
Kandace K Rocky Mountains, Alberta, Oct 2
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandace%20J%20and%20K
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=259062


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Nancy C
 

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 02:21 PM, Nancy & Vinnie & Summer wrote:
What I think is super relevant about this post is that our environment is fluid and constantly changing. We have to be open- minded about the possibility that something we once thought to be infallible, can be fallible. 
Agreed. Which is why we request all the details. We don't have them.

Sorry, but I know from experience, there will be folks in panic.

I hope everyone with concern may hold final judgements until we can hear from all shareholders.  Dr Kellon balances this product.  She knows about iron increases from processing. Aurelio and Scott deserve the time to investigate and report back. This info has been shared with potentially  8000 members.

I would also especially like to hear more about the correlation/causation issue with Vinnie -- from Dr Kellon.

And thank you for letting me air my thoughts.

Respectfully,

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Sandra Draibye
 

Ah, we are just phrasing it differently - I think you mean 500 mg/kg  per day- which is roughly 5000 mg per day.  My diet was reviewed by a nutritionist at madbarn last Fall - and more recently by Scott this past week - his view was that except for the copper and zinc I have been adding since the test results - even with the 2020 ppm of amino trace + - my diet is balanced.
--
Sandra on Vancouver Island, B.C.
December 2018


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Lorna Cane
 

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 02:21 PM, Nancy & Vinnie & Summer wrote:
I think it is valid for each and every one of us to reassess what we learn as we learn it.
Absolutely !!
 
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Interpreting Urinox 10 test strip after Invokana dose reduction

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Cass, 

Mine ranged from 2 hours post dosing to 8 hrs. I always seemed to get the same result.

Thanks Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Interpreting Urinox 10 test strip after Invokana dose reduction

 

Thanks, Nancy. How long after giving Invokana did you do the tests? I’m testing 4-5 hours after the daily dose. I may try later in the day. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Poulin Grain Forage Extender Pellet mini bites

Sandy
 

Thank you Lavinia - I will stop feeding the Poulin pellets.  Maybe the dealer will allow me to bring back this unopened bag for credit and I will give her the remainder of the opened one (she's already taken two other bags of feed I opened)..... I was thinking I read the brown color from soaking was from iron.  I stand corrected. 


--
Sandy Kemp
Northeast Pennsylvania
Crystal Blue PPID/IR
Tiffany PPID
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandy%20and%20Tiffany 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandy%20and%20Crystal%20Blue


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I am going to weigh in here. My apologies if I offend.

I don't think this is causing unnecessary panic. I think it is valid for each and every one of us to reassess what we learn as we learn it.

If you recall I made a post about Vinnie's dramatic weight loss, about a week before he was hospitalized for hypertriglyceridemia.  My instincts were correct that something was awry. Many here posted that it was probably dehydration. We all know now what happened in his case.

What I think is super relevant about this post is that our environment is fluid and constantly changing. We have to be open- minded about the possibility that something we once thought to be infallible, can be fallible. 

I will also note that I made a post about Vinnie when we started the odtbc cubes and his crest seeming to increase. That was last summer.  

Thanks for letting me air my thoughts. 

In gratitude,

Nancy
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Lorna Cane
 

Yes,Sandra, but reporting what each one said to you, in a case like this, is not the same as hearing from them here.

I'm confident we will hear from them and from Dr. Kellon.

In the meantime, I  regret that  members are unnecessarily working themselves into a panic while the issues are being worked out.

The devil is always in the details. We're short on those.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Help! Rising ACTH and Insulin

Suzy Berkowitz
 

On February 4 Scout’s ACTH was 29.7 and his insulin was 152.31. He started metformin that day with the recommended 30mg/kg. On February 25 his insulin had come down to 76.51. He seemed very comfortable. The past week or so walking a bit slower, so rechecked ACTH and insulin. March 31 results- ACTH is 33.9 and insulin is back up to 110.44.He has been on metformin all this time.  He has been on 2mg prascend since December after being on 1.5mg for years. He still has fat pads. My questions are should I increase his prascend now or can I safely wait till July before the start of the seasonal rise? Can I try increasing his metformin, have others tried dosing at higher than the 30mg/kg? Thank you.
--
Suzy in Fl 2020
Scout Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzy%20Scout
Scout Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260915


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Nancy C
 

No, I meant 500 ppm as I stated, as is stated in NRC.

Balance the diet. That will support your horses to help keep your house of cards from falling.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Sandra Draibye
 

Nancy,

Did you mean a safe upper limit of 5000 ppm for iron?  I think the NRC minimums are around 590 ppm? 

Thanks for the input on ECIR's position on toxicity and balancing.  My concern is that when levels of anything are so high  - one little thing - environmental, a fluke change in manufacturing and the whole thing falls apart like a house of cards.   I have learned a lot from this group and am grateful for its existence - but that is not a risk I am willing to take for my horses.  
--
Sandra on Vancouver Island, B.C.
December 2018

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