Date   

Acute laminitis mustang seeking input

Makendra Silverman - NS
 

Thank you, I've completed Arrow's case history (2007 Mustang Mare, undiagnosed IR) and uploaded photos of body and hooves. Hard to think straight in crisis mode but she is comfortable now in boots and I am looking for what else to do to help her through this. At present she isn't comfortable lifting front feet up for more than a few seconds but is comfortable walking in soft ride boots (wearing 24/7 at present). She is on 1 Equioxx, 1 per day, started today. I thought she was improving Thursday but then took a bad turn Friday. Scary and frustrating as I have been working so hard to make sure she is getting better and learning, learning, learning myself.  

-Has anyone seen adding salt to cause issues for IR horse? A nutritionist told me this once and so I had stopped adding salt to her mash last fall. Restarted salt a week ago with emergency diet.

I would love input if anyone sees red flags or has ideas on what I can/should do for her. I am not seeing dramatic improvement from the emergency diet and I am hesitant to block her for trim. Am hoping she'll improve enough for trim ASAP however. 

Here is some background, much of which is also on the case history:
-She has never foundered before but has undiagnosed IR I believe. I just found calculator this week and 9-2019 tests are HIGH RISK
-Bloodwork at Cornell for Metabolic Panel, awaiting results (sent in Thursday 3/31)
-Acute laminitis started on 4/1/2021 (Friday afternoon). Gave 1g bute as per vet, in Soft Ride Boots. In pain without boots. Not a laminitic stance but I can see her pain and she is very hesitant to walk without boots. Seems quite happy with Cloud boots. Bright eyed, eager, hungry, interactive (doing tricks to see if she can get a treat etc). In deeply bedded stall with 10x10' paddock for now. 
-Sometimes can feel a pulse but overall her legs and feet are warmer than usual. Felt sharp pulse in RF on Thursday 4/1. 
-Has been on emergency diet for a week but mostly on an even lower sugar hay (5.2 ESC + starch and soaked) for past three days {fed over four feedings in slow feeder hay net.} Has been eating low sugar hay since 3-20 (7.9 ESC + Starch BUT with higher 15.5% protein, about 1400g per day and I have found a few stems of alfalfa which normally she's ok with in a bit of hand-grazing). She has been on low sugar tested hay since summer 2019 at least minus Jan/Feb when low sugar hay I ordered ended up being a second cutting of the same field (12.3 ESC+Starch). 
-One week ago she was at the best she's been in some months and increasing exercise, losing weight and sound with decreasing crestiness and I could feel her ribs.
-Starting Monday of last week she starting getting crestier and continued into week increasing in crest and weight. Udder seemed normal until acute pain started Friday- now tender and full. 
-Not sure of trigger (eating a little grass on our walks ? back tight causing stifle soreness? too strong a workout though it seemed appropriate step up? tiny amount of rasping to front hooves in effort to improve medial-lateral balance by me? I started adding plain white salt- no iodine about a week ago as well? She has a small herpes outbreak on nose from my foster pony who is 4 and came with warts- could virus be adding to this? Do any of these factors seem problematic? She got a few mouthfuls of chicken feed on 4/1 as well but seemed great morning of 4/2... acute in afternoon of 4/2)
-Started California Trace and mineral balancing to hay (feeding at 1.5% of current bodyweight). Also started tri-aminos from My Best Horse today. 
-She was on Dynamite Easy Balance starting 3-17-21 and with access to free choice minerals. I pulled her off all these on 3/31 with concern of adding too much iron to her diet.
-She has been dewormed 2x/year, Ivermectrin in the spring and Quest plus in the fall. Annual fecal egg counts always 0. Saw notes on Quest plus being dangerous for future.
-We have a small place but she and friends have a drylot with access to stall and I've been walking her and doing groundwork and strength rehab for past two months 6 days/week. 
-Have input from rehab barefoot trimmer to improve current trim but she won't lift up front feet for me to trim and I need to bring her to him 1hr away so need her to be stable. He's awaiting xrays to be taken Monday 4/5 as well. 

Notes which may or may not be crucial or helpful:
Noticed strong reaction to apple cider vinegar/water treatment to center sulcus of frog starting one week ago. Thought at first it was smell but she had been fine so perhaps a deeper infection? Have been treating with ACV and Desitin and Arti-Mud to improve frog for past three weeks. Never reactive before.
-She was shod in front as per vet in effort to reduce hoof tenderness (I wouldn't do that now) but she was in front shoes for first and last time Sept 2020- Jan 2021. Toes got longer, overall health of hooves decreased. Negative Plantar Angle in hinds? Hinds have not changed much and always minimal trims as she wears them down quite well. Past four years of on and off lameness and more limited work are hurtful. 
-I suspect she is overloaded on iron as I have not sufficiently been balancing Zn and Cu over the past 11 years in captivity and looking back, supplements that I thought were taking care of her needs were far too low in Zn and Cu and Mg. 
-Ordered basic water test awaiting results (we have city water and city doesn't list iron levels in their yearly analysis). I removed rusty portion of water heater in early March of this year and took away brown salt block... though I never saw her lick it.
-Planning to get iron blood test on Monday along with x-rays.

Thank you- grasping at straws and hoping I can help her to be comfortable and stop any ongoing damage. 


--
Makendra and Arrow
Denver Colorado, 2021
Arrow's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Makendra%20and%20Arrow
Arrow's  Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=262625


Re: Help! Rising ACTH and Insulin

Suzy Berkowitz
 

Hi Sherry. Typo on #2. The 1.25 lbs of stabul 1 is divided am/pm. 
--
Suzy in Fl 2020
Scout Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzy%20Scout
Scout Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260915


Re: Easy Going Calming Paste

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

Thank you so much Sherry and Nancy for your input it has helped me to make a decision. I’m deciding against the using products with Tryptophan.

--
Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )


Re: Easy Going Calming Paste

Laura and Pabatsa in CA
 

--
Laura and Pabatsa in California
Feb 2012
Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa )
Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )


Re: Help! Rising ACTH and Insulin

Suzy Berkowitz
 

Hi Sherry,
1- Scout is 44”. About 400 lbs. He will be 30 years old in June.
2- he gets 1.25lbs stabul1 with flax and salt am/pm. 6 lbs triple crown Timothy balance cubes divided into 3 meals.
3- the paddock is about 1.5 acres, that he shares with Ziggy the mule. There is a heavily bedded two stall barn in the middle that they have free choice to go in and out. There is a mix of weeds/ grass. This is south Florida so nothing rich in there.
4- the newest set of x-rays were taken on Feb. 3. His latest trim was on March 18. He wears custom clogs up front.
Thanks


--
Suzy in Fl 2020
Scout Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzy%20Scout
Scout Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260915


Case Histories: What You Need To Know - Sun, 04/04/2021 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Case Histories: What You Need To Know

When:
Sunday, 4 April 2021

Description:

Your equine's Case History is the most important step to be completed upon joining the ECIR Group. It is critical for obtaining timely and specific advice from the support team.   

 

If you are a long time member, migrated from Yahoo, please be aware there are changes in how information is to be properly posted.  We also have a new case history form. If your case history does not contain the IR Calculator Table please transfer all your information on to the new form. The new uploading rules and instructions are located at the bottom of the case history form

 

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members. To help protect the data and your privacy only members of the main ECIR Group are granted access to the Case History Group.  If you are concerned about privacy you need only give your first name and general location.  The use of pseudonyms to keep your equine professionals anonymous is encouraged. Please review the ECIR Group Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

 

Don't delay posting or updating your case history. 

Missing information it can be added as you obtain it. The faster your case history is completed with what you currently know, the faster you will receive the best support from the support team. 

 

Please take the time to update your Case History.  An up-to-date case history is invaluable when an equine emergency crops up. Accurate documentation of management changes, the equine's responses, blood work results and links to the equine's photo album not only helps the ECIR Group gain the trust and respect of science-based equine professionals but can be used by vets who are on the ground trying to help your horse. Your Case History is the best way to effectively monitor and illustrate the results in PPID and IR management changes. 

 

Please leave all your information uploaded. When the time comes that you or your equine no longer need the advice of the ECIR Group, please leave your case history folder intact. Your information will be used in the future to confirm or re-shape ECIR protocols and help other members learn.  This is the best way to “give back” to the ECIR for the help you and your horse have received. 

 

Photos go in the Case History Photo Section.  Please help the Support Team work as efficiently as possible. Read How to Make a Photo Album for the rules and follow the Naming Pattern for photos so the Support Team can quickly locate the photos they need to see.  

 

Thank you for your cooperation, 

The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group

 


Re: Temperament change noted in RC

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jan,

As Lorna already mentioned we can't advise anything about possible PPID or IR issues without knowing current bloodwork results, what his current diet is (weights as well as what he's eating) and what his current trim looks like.  However, all of those points aside, have you tested him for Lyme?  That alone could account for most of the symptoms you're describing.




locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

chemelle
 


-- hi Lorna,
I was referring to the results that the original poster itemized, if I understood that correctly.
thank you Lavinia.
Chemelle
Hillsboro, OR
2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chemelle%20and%20Andy 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94380


Re: Temperament change noted in RC

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Jan,

I looked at his CH,but 2018 is the most recent info I found. 
My guess(never satisfactory) is that his ACTH results may tell us that the 1mg of pergolide ,which he has been on for over 3 years(yes?)may not be controlling the PPID.
If his diet is the same as recorded in 2018,and he were mine,I'd be rethinking it,too....senior feeds,etc.
He may just be telling you he's feeling crappy. You know, "leave me alone, don't touch me,bug off" type of thing?
It's possible that a tighter diet and increased pergolide dose will make him happier.
Let us know when you get your test results,and we'll  know better how to help him.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Temperament change noted in RC

Jan Petersen
 

Hi, I have recently noticed that my horse is becoming more irritable. He has always been a bit grumpy, but he is now pinning his ears and trying to bite myself and the staff at our boarding facility. He also re fused to let the farrier shoe his hind feet and threatened to kick the saddle fitter. I am worried this is an indication that his IR and PPID are worsening. I just had the Vet out to do his spring bloodwork and am waiting on the results. ( ACTH, Insulin, glucose, and Leptin) Any thoughts? Suggestions? 

His pasture buddy passed away in February, so he is alone in his dry lot now. He is next to other horses in a neighboring pasture though. Right after this happened, he refused to eat his Stabul 1 grain and supplements. He would only eat hay. We treated him with Ulcerguard and switched him to beet pulp as a carrier for his supplements, which he seems to love. Nothing else of note has changed though. I am at a loss as to what to do. I hate to see him so unhappy and I don’t want anyone to get hurt. 

Thank you in advance for any suggestions. 
--
Jan and RC
Stockertown, PA, USA
Feb 2018
RC Case History
RC Photos 


Re: TROUBLE UPLOADING .PDF VERSION OF CASE HISTORY

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Sue

Thanks for double checking.  May I please point you here?  https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diet.php

This is our most updated info.  Scroll down to DO Feed section. You want to feed (for the Emergency diet only) 1.5 grams of elemental magnesium per 500 pounds of body weight.  A half-teaspoon of mag ox powder provides approximately 1.5 grams of magnesium.

Can you do your math from here?  If not, give a yell. I'm better at this kind of math in the morning over coffee.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: TROUBLE UPLOADING .PDF VERSION OF CASE HISTORY

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Sue,

In our Files it says this ,under Emergency Diet:

"Magnesium: 1.5 grams/day per 500 lbs body weight (only as a short-term measure until hay analysis can confirm if it is actually needed or not, and how much). Can use human supplement, or get feed-grade magnesium oxide from a feed mill – 1/2 teaspoon magnesium oxide provides approximately 1.5 grams magnesium."
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Chemelle,

You just balance the remaining part of the diet to itself and consider the ODTBC portion already done.

So if the ODTBC are say 25% of the diet, you then balance the remaining 75% to itself.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: TROUBLE UPLOADING .PDF VERSION OF CASE HISTORY

Sue Ring
 

The Emergency Diet recipe only states "1 tsp of magnesium oxide" with no specific unit of measurement....since I could not locate a magnesium oxide powder the pharmacist DID have a bottle of 100 tabs of 420 ml, each tablet containing 253 mg of elemental magnesium.....given that info, how could I properly calculate his daily dose say by tsp sized portions??  I've ground all of the tablets into a powder so I have a bag of 2530 mg of ground up magnesium tablets...how much should he receive each day??

--
Sue R in NC 2021

CASE HISTORY:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SUE%20and%20DAKOTA
 


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Chemelle,

Are you saying that the iron in the ODTBC varies a lot? Do you see this listed on the tag?


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

chemelle
 

I also use the Timothy balance cubes (4 lbs) as a carrier. The iron seems to vary quite a lot. I understand that it will be balanced as a complete feed but how are we to balance if it comprises only a portion of the diet? Is it acceptable to use the average? 
--
Chemelle
Hillsboro, OR
2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chemelle%20and%20Andy 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94380


Re: Help! Rising ACTH and Insulin

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Suzy,

Sorry - bunch of questions for you:

1 - how tall is Scout?
2 - how much is he currently being fed (weight of hay and any concentrates)
3 - is he on grass?
4 - when were the x-rays you posted taken?  Has he been trimmed since they were taken?

Metformin does stop working for some horses but we need a clearer picture of his diet as well as what his current trim situation is as pain can drive up insulin, as can increasing ACTH numbers.  Were he mine I would probably want to bump him up another .5mg and see if I could get the ACTH to go more towards the teens now and not wait until summer to try to get it under control.  However, I'd also want to get his diet as tight as possible now and make sure his trim is optimal to help get his insulin back in line as well.



Re: Easy Going Calming Paste

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Laura

Not Dr Kellon, but we may not hear from her this weekend.

I searched  the message archives for tryptophan and found no comment from her about it.

I did find one study from 2006 that suggested it's use should be looked at more carefully for actual affect in horses. (Emphasis mine)

Calmatives for the excitable horse: a review of L-tryptophan


Preparations that contain tryptophan are marketed world wide as calmative agents to treat excitable horses. Tryptophan is the amino acid precursor for serotonin, a neurotransmitter implicated in sedation, inhibition of aggression, fear and stress, in various animal species and humans. Experiments have shown that tryptophan supplementation decreases aggression in humans, dogs, pigs, poultry, and fish, and that it may reduce fearfulness and stress in calves, vixens and poultry. However, behavioural characteristics more closely linked to excitement, such as hyperactivity in dogs, are not modified by tryptophan supplementation. Research using a variety of animals other than horses, has shown that the behavioural response to tryptophan supplementation varies with age, breed and gender, and can be modified by diet, exercise, social status, and level of arousal. Significantly, the response is species-dependent, and there are no scientific publications that confirm the efficacy of tryptophan as a calmative in excitable horses. The few studies where tryptophan has been administered to horses suggest that low doses (relative to those contained in commercial preparations) cause mild excitement, whereas high doses reduce endurance capacity, and cause acute haemolytic anaemia if given orally, due to a toxic hindgut metabolite. As tryptophan continues to be used as an equine calmative, there is an urgent need for research to confirm its efficacy in horses, and to establish a safe therapeutic dose range. In the meantime, available data suggest that it would be imprudent to rely on tryptophan to calm the excitable horse, and instead, that a greater effort should be made to identify the underlying causes of excitability, and to explore more appropriate non-pharmacological remedies.
*****

Also found this in an old Horse Illustrated: When it comes to equestrian sport, the United States Equestrian Federation’s assistant executive director, John G. Lengel, DVM, says that under the USEF’s Drugs and Medications Rule, L-tryptophan is considered a nutrient, not a drug, and therefore is not a forbidden substance. However, he says, “L-tryptophan, when administered for the purpose of calming a horse in competition, violates the spirit of the USEF’s rule.” Many calming supplements that contain L-tryptophan also contain other ingredients that are banned under USEF rules, and in these instances the supplement would not be allowed.
********
You may already know this and things at the USEF may have changed since 2006.

Not sure where things stand with Hemp and the USEF, however Eleanor has previously recommended this product as safe for EMS/IR horses.

HEMP calming product which also contains magnesium and taurine https://uckele.com/hemp-calming-support-3lb-bag.html

As Sherry suggested, I'd try anything in advance so you know how he will respond. You probably know that.

Sorry...that's all I have.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Easy Going Calming Paste

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Laura,

You might find some of the information in this message from Dr. Jaini helpful: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/227397.  Personally I've had good luck with straight Mg or Focus from Performance Equine Nutrition but none of the horses we've used Focus on have been IR.  https://shop.performanceequinenutrition.com/focus-equine-p46.aspx if you want to check that out.




Re: TROUBLE UPLOADING .PDF VERSION OF CASE HISTORY

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Sue,

Many of us buy Magnesium Oxide from a feed store/mill.

It is dirt cheap,and a bag lasts forever,for only one or two ponies. Some feed stores will break a 50-pound bag into smaller amounts. But it does last well if kept dry.

My Best Horse sells 2 pounds for $10.00
https://mybesthorse.com/buy-now.html


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

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