Date   

Re: WAS: Stabul 1 / NOW: Julanne and Oreo

Julanne Baker
 

Thanks, I thought that’s what you meant. Good to know you had to go lower. These air ferns are tough!

--
Julanne in Florida 2020
CaseHistory
Https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julanne%20and%20Oreo


Re: WAS: Stabul 1 / NOW: Julanne and Oreo

Julanne Baker
 

Think it was a different test:ACTH Post TRH 1 for both April and November.
--
Julanne in Florida 2020
CaseHistory
Https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julanne%20and%20Oreo


Re: WAS: Stabul 1 / NOW: Julanne and Oreo

Julanne Baker
 

Apparently a stim test: ACTH Post TRH 1
sorry, unfamiliar with the different ACTH tests. Before beginning Prascend, first test results for ACTh Post TRH 1 was 177.

--
Julanne in Florida 2020
CaseHistory
Https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julanne%20and%20Oreo


Re: Update: Relevante Goes Rodeo

Lynn
 

Hi Sherry! Thanks for saying that ...I feel better... He has never done anything like that before. I know it's not the saddle because the chiropractor carefully checked everything, the saddle pad was custom made for him and we're using a girth recommended by the chiropractor and of course...no bit since we are using the training halter.  I'm shocked I stayed on but now that it happened and we were able to work through it I have more confidence...especially hearing that this can be part of the rehab journey.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Update: Relevante Goes Rodeo

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lynn,

Glad to hear Relevante is feeling so good and hopefully neither of you are sore tomorrow!  I've often found there can be some bucks to work through when you start doing rehab so glad you were able to ride them out.




Re: Free feeding tested hay

Pat
 

She has never been this grumpy in all the time I have had her - she is a very friendly and willing mare - so I don't think it is insulin related or cycling or it would have come up before.
I will be asking for a scoping for sure, have a vet appt coming up.  I will talk to the barn about feeding and see if I can convince them to at least drop down to 1" hay bags and add some more.
--
Pat
August 2020
Metro Vancouver BC Canada
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325


Re: Free feeding tested hay

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Pat,

I'm glad to hear Willow is doing well and that she has lost so much weight!  That's great that her bloodwork is showing her insulin is well-controlled, but that was back in October.  If her insulin is creeping up at all, that could coincide with a grumpy attitude and a dislike of being touched or worked though so would you consider having her bloodwork checked again?  Biting could also be due to discomfort from cycling, or saddle fit changing after all her weight loss, etc.  If you suspect ulcers, I would have a veterinarian out and have her scoped if you can, to get an actual diagnosis.  Another option mentioned in previous posts is to try a few days of GastroGuard or Ulcerguard to see if her condition improves; if yes, then she likely does have ulcers that would benefit from the full treatment.

Because she is unlikely to ever learn to regulate her hay intake, I would not consider go the route of free-feeding hay.  I think she will balloon up so fast that all your hard work will be undone.  Currently she seems to be eating about 1.8% of her lower body weight estimate.  If you are happy with her current weight, and if she is back in work, you could try increasing her hay intake to 2% of her ideal body weight (assuming 1100 lbs is ideal, that would be 22 lbs of hay).  Also, the hay really should be weighed because estimating hay by flake size is very inaccurate.  Maybe she is getting less than you think and has good reason to be starving all the time?  One suggestion is for you to weigh out a day's worth of hay for 7 days and put it into separate garbage bags, then ask the barn to feed 1 garbage bag a day, divided in to the 3 feedings.  And, maybe on days you exercise her a minimum of 30 min trotting, she can have a small 0.5-1lb meal of hay afterwards that you give her?  Those are just my thoughts.  I know its hard and its a constant battle slowing my horse's hay consumption down, too.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Acute laminitis

Jessica Gunderson
 

I have a horse with acute laminitis going on 9 days now. Responded well to 2 grams bute twice a day, 1 gram bute does not seem adequate to manage discomfort. Also put on thyroid medicine. Being fed 18 pounds soaked hay in 1.25 hole net bag split between multiple meals. Also eats 1 scoop loose himalayan salt and 1 cup wellsolve w/c with thyroid medicine. On matted stall rest with soft rides containing laminitic gel. So far no movement of coffin bone based on radiology but concerned horse is still experiencing discomfort after 9 days. Likely brought on by hock injury that resulted in a month off from exercise and other feed changes that sent this easykeeper over the edge. Most comcerned at this point with mitigating the acute laminitis. All advice is appreciated. Thank you.

--
Jessi-ra_Dakotas_2021


Re: WAS: Stabul 1 / NOW: Julanne and Oreo

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I corrected what I wrote in my first post above...I have a bad habit of leaving out the decimal point when saying what percentage of BW in hay a horse is getting!  You are right and she is getting 1.9% (not 19%!) of her current weight.  I found I had to drop my boy down to 1.5% of his current weight to get the last 100 lbs off, and then start soaking that amount of hay to get the last 30lbs to go.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: WAS: Stabul 1 / NOW: Julanne and Oreo

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Hi Julanne,

The April reference ranges are 9-35.  That's because ACTH goes up naturally in the fall so the November reference range goes higher.  Its a minor detail but you could correct the April reference range you gave in your Case History if you like.

:)
--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Update: Relevante Goes Rodeo

Lynn
 

Dr. K's April 9 blog post on "Conditioning The Older Horse" was excellent and timely for me and the boy.  Last May radiographs showed severe broken HPAs in Relevante's hind feet. So much so, that Dr. K and Lavinia said to stop exercise and riding. We set about to biomechanically correct the problem with the right trim [from Lavinia of course...we need t-shirts that say "Feet By Lavinia"] and in October 2020 he was weaned out of his Easyboot Clouds (with wedges) and I started walking him and building up the time. [you can see his hoof evolution in his photo album] Last Saturday we were cleared to ride. [I had been building up weight starting with walking him saddled]. I rode him for the first time since this happened at a walk for 15 minutes. It was hard to hold him back because he wanted to GO, but I finally got him to walk on a loose rein. Today was his third medical massage in row [we did a series] and then I took him out to the arena for a walk/ride. [I'm using a knotted training halter with reins because I'll need it when he's ready to gait to help him balance and get his groove back. So I wanted to get him used to it.]
Well...today I became a star  - if I'd know I would have worn a flashy shirt with fringe. He was calling out to the other horses in the barn and as we neared the back of the arena in a flash he spun, threw his head down and started to full out buck. After I recovered from my initial shock - I stopped it by pulling one rein to my knee/foot. The gal who did the massage was watching him to see if she could detect any soreness anywhere and when she started to step outside the gate that's when he threw his little tantrum, one of THREE!!!!! I am proud to say that I did not come off once during this little drama. I am surmising [since he can't talk] that he didn't want to be in the arena alone - and to be fair - he knew his lunch hay was in his stall. I do try to avoid meals time at the barn but sometimes you can't.  I finally got him to be calm and just walk - if I saw him start to get anxious I immediately turned him back to the gate but I wouldn't let him stop there - I kept him moving....and we ended the ride on a positive note with me still aboard. We will continue to adhere to Dr. K's "long and slow" advice per her blog but I share this because despite his long road to recovery [which we are still traveling]- after his shenanigans today - he can't be hurting that much [and here I was afraid I was going to "break" him because I'm no expert at rehab] but secretly - though I would never tell him this - I am glad to see him be able to kick up his feet - just preferably not with me on him the next time.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: WAS: Stabul 1 / NOW: Julanne and Oreo

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Julanne,

Was the testing just a plain ACTH (one draw) or a TRH stim test? The reference ranges for the stim test are 9-110pg/ml.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Cody's test results

Sherry with Dusty, Blue and Cody
 

Hi, Dr. Kellon and everyone else who so selflessly dedicates their time here.  I entered Cody's new test results in his case history (I think I got it right), and was wondering if someone could take a look and let me know how we're doing.   Please note that with the weight tape he weighed in at 915 but using the calculator he was a little over 1000.  He is a little thin so somewhere in the middle perhaps?  Thanks in advance.    
--
Sherry, Feb 2018, Gates, NC
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Cody  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/DustyHoof/album?id=38179 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/BlueHoof/album?id=38486

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=38227
 


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

Nancy C
 
Edited

You are welcome. I did this for the many people who are concerned about your reporting. I also wanted you to see you have options right now that will lower your iron intake, labeling not withstanding.
  I am actually a bit surprised that I have never seen information on the iron in the Timothy Balanced Cubes on ECIR, its bio availability and the decisions made with respect to what portion of that iron to balance on ECIR.
Actually, it has been. I highly recommend you learn how to search the message archives where you can read about the travails of labeling equine products. Dr Kellon answered your preliminary questions about iron in February. We have reported ECIR's current stand on bioavailability with you over the last few days. There are many, many conversations about not relying on labeling.  This group was started 21 years ago with a thirst for information that no one had. There's lots of historical info in the message archives of members going to bat with companies, seeking accurate reporting of "sugar" and starch, NSC, NFC, ESC, WSC., fructan, iron, and probably a host of others I am not remembering.

The battle continues over 20 years later.

You may have noticed -- or not -- that we've had at near a dozen members report with laminitis or other concerns in the last 24 hours. So that we may focus on their Case Histories (thank you all!), I am going to close this conversation. If Dr Kellon needs to she can open it back up.

Hope you can find a friend in the Canadian agency that rules on labeling. Also need it for the USDA.

Kristen, you are right about Manganese, but Sandra's is low. We don't know anything about her horse, so I was not going to report on it.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: WAS: Stabul 1 / NOW: Julanne and Oreo

Julanne Baker
 

Thanks Kirsten! I appreciate your help!
i just checked my finalized report for 11/20. The reference interval stated is 9-110. Maybe they have a typo? 35 is a far cry from 110!😂
Oreo has always been an air fern since she was 3. I’ve had trouble with various barns keeping her rations down because she gets so little ( and she’s such a big girl!). The only time her weight was easily managed at or below 1100# were the years she was on ThyroL. The small dosage quit working for her about 4 years in. The vet suggested we increase it, but she refuses it since beginning Prascend. I see the ECIR doesn’t recommend it anyway, so I guess that’s just as well.
Including her ration balancer, she gets 1.9% of what the vet would like her to weigh. (When she was hospitalized as a 4 year old at University of Florida Vet school, they suggested 1100# (taped) as her ideal weight. Until we used the Thyrol L, she was more consistently at 1149. That’s where she is now. It’s like her set point😂) For about 7 years after blowing up considerably, she was on pasture with a grazing muzzle. My current barn owner provided her with a dry lot, so we don’t use the muzzle anymore.
Her current boarding situation (since 2016) is more adaptable about her situation. Until 2013, my biggest problem was getting the stable to feed her what I asked them to. 

Thanks for your suggestions on diet and supplements. I will be working on transitioning her to the ECIR suggestions as well as testing her hay. Crossing my fingers that her ACTH and Insulin are down in the next labs!

--
Julanne in Florida 2020
CaseHistory
Https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julanne%20and%20Oreo


locked Re: Equi-analytical 604 analysis on Timothy Balanced Cubes and Amino Trace +

kguest@...
 

Hi Sandra,

Because you are in BC I'll share something that may also be a factor, and that could also be influencing tight balancing for your horse: manganese. Apparently BC hay is very high in manganese (as a result of Mt St Helen eruption). I know that in my field, manganese is much higher than iron. If your hay is not balanced to this it will impact uptake of copper and zinc and may therefore be a piece of the puzzle you're trying to figure out in relation to your horse that could seem like an iron issue (since they interfere with balancing in similar ways). 
--


Kristen and Jasper, Prince George BC
December 2016
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristen%20and%20Jasper .
Jasper Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346 .


Free feeding tested hay

Pat
 

Hello,

My Canadian mare had laminitis August 2020. (See case history.) She has done well at new barn on your recommended diet and tested hay. 
 
She has been on a restricted diet before (in terms of % of preferred body weight) and lots of exercise and never really did lose much weight so I believe the weight loss is a result of low starch hay. Since being on weighed hay and your recommended diet, she has lost around 150 lbs.

But I am now worried she has ulcers (because of sudden on set of behaviour problems, like biting, which she has never done before).
She is fed 3x per day in hay nets but devours it quickly, leaving her with long windows without food.
Her blood work says she is not insulin resistant but your calculator says she is compensated IR, sensitive to food.

Would it be safe to at least try free feeding of tested hay for a week or two or longer, if I keep track of her weight? I would use a whole bale, small-hole net approach. I realize it could take some time for a full transition - but is it safe to just start and see where it goes in terms of health and weight. I am wiling to stop if her weight gain is too much or any other health issues arise.

Thanks!

--
Pat
August 2020
Metro Vancouver BC Canada
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325


Re: New case history files converted to pdf

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Oh I didn't see you already started a new Topic.   Here is my input on your Case History:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/was_stabul_1_now_julanne/81999090?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,81999090

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Liz & Onyx - New Results 2021

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Elizabeth, 

It looks to me like he has a BSC of 4.5-5...  I think I can just barely see his ribs in one of the side profiles
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/94258/3204270?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
and if you can easily feel each rib that is consistent with a 5.  I like his current weight.  But I agree that 1000lbs would be near ideal for his size....  Maybe your measurements are off?  There is definitely a big discrepancy between your weight-tape and calculator estimates.  Can you get him scaled to give you an actual number?

His recent high insulin is concerning, but any and all of those factors you listed could have combined to elevate those results.  It's really up to you if you think it justifies a re-test.  Certainly a review of whether his diet is still tight is in order.  Did you start on some hay that looks different than previous bales?  Maybe it is higher in sugar/starch.  Also watch that he is not getting ANY fresh green stuff in his sand paddock now that spring is here.  Even the smallest amount under the fence or stray weeds/grass can affect them at this time of year.  I see some green closely cropped grass just inside the fence in this photo:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/94258/3204268?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0
I'm not picking on you, I just know from personal experience that this is a really hard time of year and this little bit of grass would put my horse into a laminitis flare-up.  I would heavily salt the grass patches, then wet it enough that the salt dissolves and soaks into the ground a little to kill it.  Then rake up the roots so it doesn't come back.  I buy the salt you use on sidewalks as it is much cheaper than food grade salt.  Or kill it by covering it with a light-blocking barrier,  like rubber mats.

Hope that helps a bit! 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: New case history files converted to pdf

Julanne Baker
 

Thanks Sherry. Will absolutely be changing out the supplements as you suggested. My original question was about changing the Nutrena to Stabul 1. I have samples coming but don’t know how much to give. 

Her hay is weighed but not soaked. Since her blood work I have increased her work as far as intensity. We were doing more walking under saddle than trotting. Now we are trotting for 30 minutes and then walking or doing other arena type work for 15-30 minutes more , on an average of 4 days per week. I strive for 5 but with rain and my other life it works out to about 4. (i keep records in a riding app)The barn is 45 minutes away from home. Luckily at 68 I have a less hectic schedule unless my grandkids are here.
 I am hoping her bloodwork will be better this time although her weight doesn’t indicate that. 
Thanks for the help!
--
Julanne in Florida 2020
CaseHistory
Https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julanne%20and%20Oreo

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