Date   

Re: Ground Flax addition to feed

Laura H
 

Thank you both!! That's helpful.
--
Laura Heit - Ontario 2021


Soft Rides vs Clouds

 

Hi group,

Many questions, posting separately.

My horse has significant rotation in both fronts and sinking in LF.  He is ten weeks post-acute episode and comfortable in Clouds in a stall 24/7.  His insulin levels have been less than 20uU/mL last three checks (3/12/21; 3/26/21; 4/22/21).  Rad images are loaded, and I am working on his CH at this moment (has been delayed due to lack of wifi at my new farm).  Being a new farm, I used a new vet clinic for rads, and a new local vet.  She rec'd SoftRides over Clouds after looking at my gelding's rads.  I'm not familiar with the former but vet said SoftRIdes are made specifically for laminitis & its rehab.  Although my gelding is very comfortable in the Clouds, if SoftRIdes offer better support, I'll order a pair.  Therefore, I'm soliciting opinions on experiences with both/either.  

(Another question will be whether adding an extra thin pad to the "sunken" hoof makes sense, given it appears 0.5" lower into capsule than the opposite hoof.  There's also apparent hoof capsule distortion on hoof opposite the sunken P3 but I have to figure out how to upload the hoof photos.  Will ask specific questions regarding rads and extra padding in separate post).  

Many thanks,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

Rads:  CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Testing Insulin and Glucose for Dutch

Rebecca Reddicliffe Bigelow
 

The vet will be out Monday the 10th to draw blood to check Dutch's Insulin and glucose and to see how he's doing with his laminitis. I have been slowly increasing the TBC's and decreasing the LMF Low Carb Complete so that the Cubes are a bit more than half of his meal. He's getting 4 meals a day with the last one at 10 pm and the first one at 7:30 am. What should I do as far as timing of the blood draw and what would be best for him to eat before the test? He's had a trim to help align the rotation we saw on the x-rays and he's been on stall rest with a few minutes of hand walking in a sand arena. He seems comfortable.
--
Rebecca
July 2009, Sacramento, California
Case History, https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rebecca%20and%20Dutch%20-%20Snuggles/Dutch  .
Dutch Photos, https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=857  .


Re: blood work, dr kellon please

Daisy Shepherd
 

muzzle back on.   since the calculators  are not available now, are there other resources to use to look at insulin/glucose numbers.  thank you,, daisy nd tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Lydia Tuggle

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Lydia. I see that you have been a member since January, but you might not have received a welcome letter from us :)  This letter contains lots of information about PPID and IR that you may find helpful as reference to in the future.  Grab a cup of whatever you like to drink, and settle in for some interesting information organized to answer lots of questions about PPID and IR. If you find that you have more questions, just let us know, through this main forum...Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: Ground Flax addition to feed

Cheryl Oickle
 

I am to understand it is for the omega 3's. I feed dry one half cup daily with her pelleted vitamins. 

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: XRAYS/ LAVINIA

Daisy Shepherd
 

thank you. what is your best recommendation for my horse. he is not lame, has not been lame, he is IR, will be 14 8/01/.2021. he is ridden 5 to 6x per week arena and lite trail,  arena is non competition dressage.  i want to do what is best for him; tried barefoot 11/2019. was too sore, do you think maybe his soles have increased enough to try again, can the underrun heels be fixed barefoot, if stays shod will a 2 degree wedge all 4 feet help his heels and not compromise his toes; when you say to horizontally shorten toes is that the same as the 45 degree from underneath that dr bowker talks about. i am soon to be 75 years old and wish for my horse and myself to  stay sound and rideable as long as we can. do you ever email/talk/text with  farriers if they are receptive. my farrier has been a farrier for about 10 years.  sorry to be so wordy/needy, i greatly appreciate all  of your help, all the moderators, dr kellon and dr jaini.  daisy and tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Excitability on Mad Barn amino trace plus?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Pat,

It's more likely that she's feeling better than she has in quite a while than a supplement is causing the spookiness.  If you want to rule out Lyme disease you can always pull blood for that (assuming it's in your area).




Re: Question about supplements

Sue Neidlinger
 

I’ll check to see if my container has any batch number on it. I’ve been using it but basically force feeding her!! Lol 
--


Sue and Spirit 

Burt, NY, USA
Aug 2017
Spirit's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Spirit 
Spirit's Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8806 .


Re: Vinnie Update with 37.5mg Invokana

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Dr Kellon, with my new hays and since we are doing free choice up to about 24lb per day, should I be adjusting my minerals? We are using Uckele Glycocemic Eq in the morning and uckele Ubalance Foundation at night.  Also should I be adding a scoop of tri aminos  since he is only getting the one scoop of Ubalance Foundation?

With the slight insulin change up to 42.2 would you increase invokana slightly or adjust my ratios of hay to bring the esc+starch a little lower? He is still needing to gain about 25lb IMHO.  

Thanks Nancy


--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Hard swollen area in front of udder

Lydia Tuggle
 

My PPID mare developed this last year as well, except that it doesn’t seem to bother her at all. No reaction to touch whatsoever and no behavioral changes. I’ve had 3 vet opinions, but no real answers. 
--
Lydia Tuggle 
Las Vegas, NV
Jan 2021


Re: bad batch of Equi-VM?

Sue Neidlinger
 

Spirit has done exactly the same thing and I’ve only bought the 7.5 pound container directly from Uckele. I even told my vet that she all of a sudden went off her mixture of supplements and this one seemed to be one of the problems. She has never been fond of the flax seed but she normally eats everything else. 

I literally just sent this question today to the group to see if I could substitute the U Balance pellets for this thinking she might like pellets better. 
--


Sue and Spirit 

Burt, NY, USA
Aug 2017
Spirit's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Spirit 
Spirit's Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8806 .


Re: Ground Flax addition to feed

 

Hi Laura,
Ground flax is recommended to boost the Omega-3 fats in your horse’s diet.  It’s ratio of O-3 to O-6 fats is similar to that of the grass they normally eat.  With the amount we feed, I don’t think it will make much difference to the calorie intake.  I don’t know any reason not to add it to soaked feed.  
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Ground Flax addition to feed

Laura H
 

Should maybe add - her current once a day "meal" is 1 cup of beet pulp, a VM supplement (MadBarn Omneity), 10g magnesium, 1000iu Vitamin E
--
Laura Heit - Ontario 2021


Ground Flax addition to feed

Laura H
 

Hello,

I've scoured the files for an answer to this and couldn't find anything, if I just missed it please point me in the right direction.

Why is ground flax suggested for an IR horse? I have always used flax as a means of adding calories to a meal for horses that need a bit more weight. Also, it is mentioned not to soak the ground flax. Can it be added dry to soaked feed?

Thanks!
--
Laura Heit - Ontario 2021


Re: Excitability on Mad Barn amino trace plus?

Laura H
 

I really can't imagine the Amino Trace would cause excitability in a horse, nor have I experienced that while using the product. It's totally possible though that losing that much weight could make them feel like a brand new horse!
--
Laura Heit - Ontario 2021


Excitability on Mad Barn amino trace plus?

Pat
 

My horse is extremely spooky right now. Has been on Mad Barn amino trace plus (two scoops) plus ground flax + salt + jiaogulan since October. Plus low NSC hay. Nothing else. Has lost around 100-150 pounds.

Her feet are still a work in progress.

But anyone else see an increase in excitability while also taking the Mad Barn supplement?

I'm looking into all possible causes and have scheduled a vet check, I'm not limiting it to just the supplement question - but thought this group would be the best to ask about that.

Could be that the fat metabolic horse I bought two years ago is now just feeling healthy and strong. But she may now be too much horse for me!
--
Pat
August 2020
Metro Vancouver BC Canada
Case: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Willow
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253325


Re: bad batch of Equi-VM?

Laura and Ero
 

Update: I called Uckele and they're going to send me a new batch to try - different lot number. Quite honestly, THE BEST customer service. Worth a shot to see if eats it. 


--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album


Re: Question about supplements

Laura and Ero
 

Hi Sue, 

My horse has recently refused Equi-VM as well, when previously he happily ate. I'm wondering if there was a change in the formula or a bad batch? Here's my thread that I posted if it helps.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/bad_batch_of_equi_vm/82605467?p=,,,100,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,100,2,0,82605467

--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album


Re: bad batch of Equi-VM?

Laura and Ero
 

@Dawn, this was purchased directly from Uckele.

@Lorna - it happened within a week of opening, but I wasn't sure if this tended to be normal or common or just an offer week. So I tried different things before jumping to conclusions hoping we'd find a solution. Now I'm about a 1/4 through it and he leaves all of it. I'll recall another post about a horse refusing to eat Equi-VM as well ... I'll reach out to Uckele. 

In the meantime, seeking alternatives for his vit/minerals. 


--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album

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