Date   

Re: NEW CASE HISTORY ASSIST

Sue Ring
 

Hey Sherry,

Thanks for your response.  I am between phones and will get a new full body shot of Shifty for reference as soon as I can.  The bloodwork was NOT a fasting test, it was Cornell's Plasma (Insulin Baseline Equine) and TRH Response:  ACTH.  He is on Equioxx (same thing) and I think I had the dog's Previcox on my mind.  He does have some arthritis (he is an OTTB) at age 20 but I actually have been trying to lower his dosage in an attempt to wean him off, IF I can possibly do it comfortably.  I was also concerned about any of the herbs for his allergies and uveitis conflicting with the tweeking I am trying to do with his diet due to the recent diagnosis.  Hay testing is very difficult for me as I must buy it as I can get it, sometimes it comes from out-of-state, not in large batches....but I know the preferred way to balance is to the hay on hand.  Does anyone have a good method of balancing when they run into a problem like this...or am I just not thinking clearly.  I plan to take Dr Kellon's ECIR and NRC Plus courses to gain the knowledge.  Also, I have been keeping Shifty (for now) off of pasture, or just turning him out for no more than an hour while I tidy his stall and paddock area, to run an get a good roll.  I hate to do that to him and have another horse boarding with me that has no ECIR issues and actually can go out per the usual, but his buddy stays close now that my horse is on lockdown.  Will I ever be able to have him safely graze with the other horses?  Alot to sort out and I am trying to be very judicious and informed about all I do, but I have never had to deal with Cushing's...as I know many have not

Thank you so much for your time and expertise...you make it seem like there is a definite light at the end of this confusing tunnel!!
--
Sue R in NC 2021

CASE HISTORY:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Shifty


 


Wonder if I've done something incorrect.

Carrie
 

Hi Moderators, 
I sent a message a short while ago about my updated Case History & Photos requesting some advice regarding test outcomes & have not heard from anyone up till now.  Maybe I have done something incorrectly.
If all is correct , it's no problem you are all busy, I'll wait to hear when you are able to advise . 
Many thanks 
Carrie 

--
Carrie 
March 2021
UK



Re: Update on Cadet, relapse of foot sensitivity--second try

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Sounds encouraging regarding the trim, Aunna. When you have a moment, seeing pix from after the trim would be great.

How long has he been tender footed this last round? Unfortunately, it does seem like he is straddling that proverbial fence. How long this may set him back will depend on how long the tenderness lasts and how well his trim is supporting him now.

Frustrating for sure.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Vitex/Chasteberry study #Vitex_CHB_Chasteberry

Sue Ring
 

Hey Cass,

I am not very "scientifically" oriented, but after reading this article (and have you also say you are using the vitex/Pergolide combo) are you getting better results with the combination??  Someone recently recommended I add 1/2 - 1 tbsp of the herb to my horse's daily ration, along with his prescribed Pergolide.  They said it gives added support to suppressing the tumor.  Thanks for any additional information you can give!!
--
Sue R in NC 2021

CASE HISTORY:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Shifty


 


Re: Jiji's Blood Test Results

 

Nope. The only clinic nearby has only one large animal vet and he is extremely busy. I've been calling probably once a month and leaving my name and phone number with the receptionist but I've never gotten a call back.
I will reply to this thread as soon as I get her bloodwork results.
Thanks
--
-Olivia
May 2021, Bemidji, Minnesota
Jiji's Case History
Photo Album


Re: Re-addressing fructan level #Fructans

 

Sherry,

It always comes back to the fundamental, NO Laminitis!

If it's too late, then you treat the cause and support the hoof.

You don't treat laminitis with diet. You treat hyperinsulinemia with diet. You prevent hyperinsulinemia with diet. You treat PPID with Pergolide, (sorry - no prevention for PPID). Because these are the most common causes of laminitis, this is where our focus goes. But, I could go on:

You prevent fructan induced laminitis by not delivering 8 lbs of artichoke-derived fructan through a naso-gastric tube (to date, the only documented cases of fructan-induced laminitis).
You prevent grain induced laminitis by locking the door to the feed room.
Then there are the causes of laminitis like concussive, support-limb, placental retention, Lyme disease and on and on. Laminitis is always secondary and without understanding the root cause, can never be adequately dealt with.

--

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 


Re: Hydroxizine?

 

Hi again, Lisa.
If you head over to EC Horsekeeping, you will find two documents on the use of spirulina in Files. One describes its use with chondroitin for Culicoid sensitivity.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/files/-What%20to%20do%20about%20Culicoid%20Sensitivity.pdf 
The other describes spirulina for respiratory issues. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/files/EK%7CWinter%20Respiratory%20Health%20for%20Your%20Horse.pdf 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Hydroxizine?

Anthie Booras
 

I get mine from mybesthorse.com. I believe the bags have a recommended amount on them. Mine currently gets 1/2 tablespoon chondroitin once a day and a tablespoon of spirulina twice a day. When she was really bad I was doing two tablespoons spirulina twice a day. 
--
- Anthie

Northern California
August 2015

Erin's case history: 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Anthie%20and%20Erin/


Update on Cadet, relapse of foot sensitivity--second try

riggslippert@...
 

Hello,

Cadet's case report has been updated.

After Lavinia expressed concerns about Cadet's trim (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/82163413#264044), he was seen by a new farrier, who seemed very approachable and took back his toes quite a bit.  He also requested a look at Cadet's most recent radiographs.  There was no lameness after the trim.  Cadet is scheduled for a second trim with the new farrier 3 weeks after the first.  I plan to post new hoof pix after that.

I had rechecked lab work just before the trim.  The temperature had been above 50 F for most of the 48 hrs before, although it was 47 F at the time of the sample.  His insulin remains elevated (Cornell 87.36 mIU/mL), although it is better than the last time.  Triglycerides 66 mg/dL (RI 10-90).  He had no access to grass and I think his diet is as tight as I can make it.  His weight hasn't changed significantly with the calculator, but he looks much leaner, no crest or supraorbital fat, and I can feel his ribs better.  I have to assume this is the lowest I will be able to get his insulin without increasing his exercise.  I was about to extend his hand walking and maybe consider starting to ride him until...he had access to grass clippings blown into his dry lot by the neighbor mowing his lawn.  This happened after I had left the boarding facility for the day and he probably nibbled on them overnight.  Now his feet are slightly tender, with no increase in pulses.  He is reluctant to walk on gravel, walks normally in his dry lot and on sand, but refuses to trot.  

This appears to illustrate how much of a metabolic tightrope he is walking.  Does this relapse mean his timetable to being ridden is reset to zero (ie 6 plus months)?  

Thank you in advance for any comments or suggestions.
--
Aunna
October 2018
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
Cadet Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet
Ruger Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger

Cadet Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102




Re: Re-addressing fructan level #Fructans

Sherry Morse
 

Thank you so much for filling in more information Kathleen.  I too have a huge issue with some of the misinformation out there about IR and PPID (particularly when I hear it coming from a vet) but this is a great summary of this particular topic. 





Re: Jiji's Blood Test Results

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Olivia,

Frankly we'll be better able to answer your questions once we see the actual numbers for ACTH, insulin and glucose.  She may just be overweight and have bad feet.  Has she had any x-rays done on her feet? 




Re: Re-addressing fructan level #Fructans

 

In addition to Sherry's excellent and accurate response, a reminder to go full circle with "diagnosis."

First and foremost, what is the cause of the laminitis? We often forget that laminitis is a secondary outcome. Treating laminitis is like trying to get the cows back in the barn - how did they get out in the first place?

If the horse has or had documented high insulin and that is the known cause of the laminitis, the question should be, "Did the diet change result in a reduction of insulin?" If yes, then the diet is effective and the source of the current symptoms need to be investigated. Other things to consider - does the horse have unmanaged PPID? Does the horse have abscesses brewing from post-laminitic damage? Is the trim/hoof support adequate? Is there an underlying infection?

If fructan is an issue related to laminitis, then the mechanism is through endotoxemia or "sepsis-induced laminitis." In that case (which, BTW, has never been documented on pasture and certainly not hay), then there would be symptoms accompanying or preceding the laminitis, like a gut upset. 

In the experiments where researchers triggered sepsis-induced laminitis using rapid induction of inulin fructan, they needed a minimum of 5 lbs to trigger laminitis in 30% of animals and 8 lbs in 100%. That's pure fructan, delivered to the gut all at once. If this horse is eating hay (slowly) with 4.64% estimated fructan, fed at 2% bodyweight per day, that's about 1 lb of fructan, and a different form of fructan than that derived from artichokes, delivered over the course of the day. I would be more than happy - thrilled actually - if someone could explain to me how that would trigger sepsis-induced laminitis. Even the unproven theory that there is a release of fructose/glucose molecules as the fructan is being fermented and that somehow results in hyperinsulinemia is squishy in this case because even if you use NSC (WSC+starch), it's barely above 10%. So... where's the logic?

Sorry - don't mean to shoot the messenger and you were absolutely correct to ask. It's just that, after over 10 years of illogical argument with no data to support it, it gets annoying. Take this quote for example,

"Although laminitis has yet to be induced experimentally by feeding fructan-rich pasture or a fructan-rich extract, there are anecdotal reports of clinical laminitis occurring when diets are below 10% ESC+starch but high in NSC." Again... what is the cause of the laminitis? Notice that it doesn't say, "there are reports of hyperinsulinemia..." again (and again) pointing to the outcome, not the cause. The paragraph concludes with, "Until specific research data are available, horse and pony owners would be well advised to avoid feeding high-NSC pasture and hays,... to soak... to use grazing muzzles."

As a scientist and advisor to this group, I find this completely illogical. It basically says, "There is no proof, but let's put the burden on the horse owner." Not only is there no proof, there's no physiologic basis for the rationale. Fructans are pre-biotic and are likely more beneficial than not. They certainly don't have a role in glucose or insulin production unless the horse is a species unlike all other mammals. 

Argh... sorry - it's not you - it's this topic!
--

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 


Re: Vitex/Chasteberry study #Vitex_CHB_Chasteberry

 

This link to the article,  Use of the Chasteberry Preparation Corticosal® for the Treatment of Pituitary Pars Intermedia Dysfunction in Horses,  works for me. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: New Bloodwork Results in updated Case History- Please Review

Sherry Morse
 


Hi Leigh,

Looks like you are definitely heading in the right direction so that's wonderful news.  If May is comfortable enough to get back to work you may find that brings her insulin down even more.




Re: Vitex/Chasteberry study #Vitex_CHB_Chasteberry

chemelle
 

Thank you for this!
I recently added the chasteberry (evitex) to improve shedding and I think Andy already has a very pronounced seasonal rise.
--
Chemelle
Hillsboro, OR
2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chemelle%20and%20Andy 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94380


Jiji's Blood Test Results

 

Well, I got a text from the vet but not her actual results. I will post them once everything is in on this thread.
"Not all the results are back but so far everything is looking normal on Jiji. Neg for Cushings I, insulin resistance, and hypothyroidism. Selenium levels are above normal but not at a toxic level. Vitamin E is a normal level. I will send the final report when finalized but her sore feet don't seem to be caused by a metabolic disorder. We don't know what her vitamin E and selenium levels were before she started the supplement and started on grass so we can only speculate on that. Doesn't hurt to supplement with vitamin E in winter and keep her on something with biotin for her feet."
I've also sent in a UC Davis test for PSSM1, HYPP, MYHM, and MH. As I said I will report her actual test results (and whether she's negative for the QH diseases) with the normal lab values as soon as I get them. But it might be that her laminitis is mechanically-caused?
When I got Jiji in 2017, I will admit, I was unaware of what healthy hoof care looked like. She was shod and had extremely underrun heels, terrible thrush, and a very long toe. Quarter cracks, wall splitting, a crumbling white line on every foot. Then, when we decided to go barefoot the farrier simply said to let her rest in the pasture for a couple of days and she would be fine. (She wasn't.) He said that it was simple, if she could not remain sound whilst barefoot then she should have shoes. I ended up finding Pete Ramey's website and decided she should be kept barefoot. She has slowly developed a stronger foot but this was without the help of an educated trimmer, or an adequate, balanced diet. It has been 4 years and she still has underrun heels and distortion to her hooves. It wasn't until I read the nutrition article of Pete Ramey's that I realized her diet was off.
I am really surprised that she ISN'T positive for any metabolic issue. She is overweight. While she doesn't have noticeable fat pads or a cresty neck, she has the fat above her eyes and spongy fat around her tailhead and behind her shoulder. Her feet are terrible (bruised and a present digital pulse... though the vet said it wasn't a bounding pulse) and she looks stiff... Not the typical foundered stance but she camps out in the back and points her left front. I did the Karo Light glucose test and I could see changes in Jiji's comfort (physical stance and facial pain indicators) within an hour of administering the corn syrup. I swear something is wrong.
Any diagnostic suggestions, or ideas on what might be up with her? Could it have been a false negative? Questions for me, farrier, vet?
Jiji is being transitioned off grass and onto timothy hay as I write this. It's a slow process because not everything I need to do it is ordered, but she will soon be off grass completely. Tonight or tomorrow morning.
--
-Olivia
May 2021, Bemidji, Minnesota
Jiji's Case History
Photo Album


Re: Question about when to test hay

Nancy C
 

Hi Bill

FWIW we have used propionic hay preservative when the bales were coming in at >10%. They have only had to do that once or twice.  These are small(er) bales 30-50 pounds, typically.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


New Bloodwork Results in updated Case History- Please Review

lfitz66
 

I just updated May's Case History with her latest bloodwork. Would love feedback. My farrier also came and made the adjustments to her glue ons as Lavinia suggested.
TY
--
Leigh and May
Michigan
Joined 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Leigh%20and%20May
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260799


Re: Question about when to test hay

 

I feel better....we make 4x5 round bales and we have a meter we test several bales for moisture content in each field. We have 4 bales the moisture tested above 22 in just one spot on one side of the bale and below 17 everywhere else. We stack ours in the barn the day we bale because we usually are chasing the next rainfall. This year our first field was cut under cooler temps by day and night but it dried fine with the exception of some small fields we never usually cut. But because this is the earliest we have gotten any hay in and....the time of day I am very nervous about the sugars. I will go ahead and sample today and send it in for my peace of mind then take another sample in a month for my AG agent. We are planning on baling the next 2 fields this week but the temps are rising to what we normally have so we should have plenty of drying time and the ability to cut early in the morning. Thank you!


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.


--
Nancy and Akira
3/20/2018  Burkesville KY

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Akira


Re: Re-addressing fructan level #Fructans

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Delli,

Fructans have long been disproved to have anything to do with endocrine laminitis:


Now, having said that - as you should know there are more than just diet changes associated with endocrine laminitis.  Has this horse been tested to be IR or PPID? If yes, have there been further tests after diet changes to see if the bloods have improved?  If the horse was overweight, has it lost weight?  Have there been adjustments to the trim to address issues in the hooves?  What else is the horse eating besides hay? 

That's just the tip of the iceberg on questions but if the horse is IR or PPID you can help the owner by directing hm/her to this list so we can help the horse directly by having answers to all those questions.


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