Date   

Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I have always soaked the next day's beet pulp 24 hrs (until the next feeding) for convenience, but in hot weather try to keep it cooler.  Best to rinse at beginning and end, but if you can only rinse once I'd do it at the end and be thorough.

Rice bran is risky.  It's very high in starch, which can be very bad for an EMS horse, or a PPID horse with elevated insulin.  Soy hull pellets are safe and can be fed soaked or dry with the beet pulp, or instead of it.  I wet them to get the minerals to stick, then feed before they turn to mush.  If you can find Ontario Dehy Timothy Complete cubes (Feed Store to your Door near Edmonton has them), they are safe, too.  They can be soaked, or steamed in hot water, to make a damp mash for the minerals to stick to.  1 cup dry expands significantly when soaked to a mash.

Without checking her insulin it's hard to know if the pasture she is getting is an issue.  If she only has PPID, and you keep it well controlled with pergolide, the pasture probably won't be a problem.  Fall pasture, during the seasonal ACTH rise, is probably riskiest for a PPID horse.  If her insulin shows that she has EMS, the pasture will be an issue.  Small amounts of high sugar grass can cause laminitis in EMS horses.  Not knowing her insulin makes the risk hard to evaluate, but the info in your Case History doesn't seem to suggest she has EMS.

One tiny slice of carrot to feed her pergolide is fine. 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

My vet charges me 250$ for the PPID panel at U Guelph.  I was sure that included a markup, but maybe it doesn't?  Shipping is extra, as are all other related fees (call out, pull, processing,  etc) etc.  

Considering your vet did not do the tests you asked for from the start, resulting in significant added expense to you, I hope they offer you a discount, at least for the cost of the original ACTH test or their call out fees.

However, we would recommend retesting ACTH at least after 3 weeks at the prescribed dose to make sure it's effective anyways, and also testing in mid-late July as a general rule before the seasonal rise ramps up.  So if you want to arrange the PPID panel for mid-late July, you'll be covering all your bases for retesting ACTH.   Since Butterscotch isn't laminitic, nor does she sound like she has EMS based on your Case History (despite being a mix of high risk breeds!), you can probably wait on the insulin and glucose until then, too.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

naomi.dechaine@...
 


Thanks for all the info! This is all really overwhelming for me. I have had horses all my life, grew up on a farm that bred/raised/trained Arabs, but that was years ago - care of horses seemed a lot simpler back then and where we are at now is not well set up for this kind of care nor have I needed to pour this kind of finances into any one animal before. I am the mom of four kids, only income earner for our household and trying to maintain our herd of 7 equines. 

Excuses out of the way, I want to give it a shot to manage this pony as my daughter who had a terrible accident on a horse we got for her last summer is finally back in good health and falling in love with this PPID mare. 

I decided to try starting with the soaked/rinsed beat pellets and trying to get some minerals into her. I can only reliably be out to feed once daily and I am the sole caregiver. So far she has only been accepting beets one or two days a week though I offer them every day. I first offer with mineral, then without but when she doesn't want it it doesn't seem to make a difference, when she does she eats with mineral. I have been trying a few weeks now. 
Questions:
-How long to soak beet pulp and is it necessary to rinse at beginning and end of soak? 
-Is rice bran pellets ok in part or as alternative? Any other alternatives to beet even if just to act for a carrier for mineral/meds?
-So far I have only been able to get her Prascend tablets into her with a piece of apple/carrot or a small handful of oats, which I know are no-no's. Since she won't eat anything else yet how can I get it into her? 
-If medicated and no laminitis how much grass could we get away with? She is currently in corrals with grass but with 3 other ponies so they keep it super short... Stressed grass but not getting high volume. This is the big kicker I think I might have to sell her to someone with better set up if she isn't supposed to get any grass at all. 


Thanks!!
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

naomi.dechaine@...
 

Thanks so much for the info!

About how much is the PPID package? The vet I was using said it was a separate test that would cost me another $250 on top of the $150 I paid for just ACTH wherever she was sending. 
--
Naomi D, AB Canada, 2021


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Would someone be able to answer the question about contraindications for IR? Od there see none known that is sufficient.

Thx Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 
Edited


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

 

Hi, Nancy.
I know little about health benefits of supplementing boron, having invested in removing boron from drinking water to avoid its known health risks described in detail by WHO. NRC 6th revised edition (not current but the one I have)  says "Based on the current status of knowledge, the natural occurrence is sufficient.... The supplementation of these elements [boron, nickel and vanadium] is not based on scientifically elaborated, valid data and has the potential to be dangerous to horses." 

I'm glad you don't use borax. There are food-grade supplements like boron citrate. The little reading I've done suggests that boron in supplements was quickly excreted in urine in amounts close to the amounts supplemented. https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Boron-HealthProfessional/  

Here's the UC Davis article about a very small group of horses, focusing primarily on increasing magnesium supplementation to help with trigeminal head-shaking. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jvim.15499  

Are you thinking Vinnie is head-shaking? A video would be very helpful. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Wondering regardless if the source of there are mineral balancing considerations or contraindications for IR. 

I understand the sourcing question but, it was something discussed with my vet over 2 yrd ago and am not concerned. On fact I have read articles about its use.  Ideally if I could find a granule form with the same efficacy I would use it. Most supps that contain Boron have other minerals that I don't want to add. I have investigated many.

Thanks Nancy
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

celestinefarm
 

Nancy, are you considering reinstating the laundry additive or using boron capsules, etc. manufactured for humans?  I can't answer your question about whether you should add it as a supplement, but I would caution you not to use the 20 mule team borax.  I know they claim it is "pure" but it is not tested, nor equilibrated into amounts to provide exactly how much boron you get if it is ingested. In fact, if it is ingested the manufactures instructions are to seek medical attention immediately.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: Vinnie update ~56.25 mg Invokana

ferne fedeli
 

So great to hear, Nancy!  What a relief you must feel.  Just don't let down your guard.  I know you know that!?!
--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


Re: Radiographs

Kelly Kathleen Daughtry
 

I think I've done it. Fingers crossed. In another "Reply", my old photos came up so I'm not sure, but we'll see. 
thanks, Kelly
--
Kelly & Micah, Clayton NC

April 2016

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20%20Micah 

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264981

 

          


Re: Radiographs

Kelly Kathleen Daughtry
 

Thank you so much  for your response. I may try to increase the prascend. This is the first year that her coat has not shed. I don't mind clipping her, but want to do everything I can to slow the progression of PPID.  I will speak with the vet about the boney changes and navicular too. We have not discussed either.  I'm going to try to take some new pictures tonight too.
Again, thank you.
--
Kelly & Micah, Clayton NC

April 2016

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20%20Micah 

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1829  .

 

 

          


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Lorna Cane
 

Oh,thanks,Kirsten.

So sample needs to  be spun sometime within 4 hours of being pulled . That's a relief.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Thanks for catching that, Lorna.  I could have sworn I recently saw a recommendation to keep it to 2 hrs before spinning, but of course I can't find it now.  This post from Jaini backs up what you are saying with the 4hrs:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/174869


--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hey all, I had been using Boron for arthritis
(dissolving 1 tbsp mule team borax in 500ml of hot water) but stopped a while back. I do think this was helping with Vinnie's arthritis and wanted to add it back. 

I remember UCD published a study in 2019 or 2020 showing that Boron and magnesium supplementation helps with head shaking syndrome.

Is there anything I need to consider IR wise or mineral balancing wise if I add Boron back to my supplements?

Thanks Nancy 

--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Cisco

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the additional observations and photos.

Elevating the heels mechanically doesn't really help the situation, as it raises the back of the foot but continues to crush the heels forward, without actually guiding the foot back under the horse. QH tend to have palmer/plantar angles on the lower end of the "average range" as their norm, which also predisposes them to the foot getting driven forward when the toes aren't kept meticulously short and the heels aren't maintained back underneath the leg. Once the foot has been squished out ahead, with the heel bulbs and digital cushion squished out behind, it takes a targeted effort to realign everything back where it belongs. My preference is to go barefoot, using padded boots if needed to help the process along. This allows for frequent, small changes to be done that encourage the entire apparatus to stand up straighter, in a more physiologically correct manner. The incremental changes also allow his entire body to adapt to the changes being made, as his muscles, tendons, ligaments will all be working differently than they are accustomed to.

In the photos, I can see some mild wall flaring, along with the underrun heels and longer toes. The overall impression is much better than the vast majority of the feet we see, so kudos to you for keeping the trim from being a train wreck. I also give you a lot of credit for experimenting with different things and noticing what does/ doesn't work, as well as how he compensates for these things.

My suggestions would be to work on getting the trim itself as physiologically tight as possible, using padded boots during the process if needed for comfort. This would include shortening the toes and unloading the walls in the heels so they'll stand more upright while maintaining the current vertical heel height.

If this makes sense to you, let me know and I can do a full set of mark-ups to help guide the trims once you can provide a full set of hoof photos (taken at ground level, please):

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Lorna Cane
 

On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 10:29 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:
Hopefully your vet is familiar with handling the blood: chilled/on ice until it can be spun within 2 hours
Hi Kirsten,

Can you clarify this ,for those with timing issues? Cornell requires this be done within 4 hours.
Does Guelph require only 2 ? I couldn't find it on their site, and  I should be clear on this for future testing.

Thanks.
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

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