Date   

Re: Need help ASAP - painful mini

celestinefarm
 

Amy,
I"m not sure from your post. She is footsore now, correct? Is she confined to a stall 24/7? What is STP?  I'm just clarifying these questions for either Dr. Kellon or one of the mods with experience with metformin who can help you. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Need help ASAP - painful mini

amyscrivanich
 

Correction - IR test was May 7th (not March ). I’m a mess 😫
--
Amy Scrivanich
Charlotte, NC
Nov 2004 (my original PPID horse passed in 2015)
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Mater%20the%20mini

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264439

 


Need help ASAP - painful mini

amyscrivanich
 

I knew we were heading in this direction when we pulled her annual bloodwork(in March) and it showed her insulin >200.   I have kept her in the stall on mats, put her soft ride boots on, started her on STP ( 2 weeks ago) and jiaogulan (3 days ago).   I don’t have time to update her CH with those changes as I think she is going to founder on me and I’m going to lose her.  I just want to get her out of pain right now. Please help ! 

Amy & Mater
--
Amy Scrivanich
Charlotte, NC
Nov 2004 (my original PPID horse passed in 2015)
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Mater%20the%20mini

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264439

 


Re: Summer Temps

nikkibob1994@...
 

Whew, thank you, i was beginning to tear my hair out trying to figure out what he was getting into for the third summer in a row!! I even blamed the neighbour's kids for sneaking him something!!!
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: Insulin response to eating

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

No, there's no formula like that. What researchers have done is try to establish a ceiling for the one hour or 1.5 hour insulin.  The most commonly proposed upper limit is 60 uIU/mL but some have used as high as 100 and on the lower end a ceiling of 45 uIU has been proposed. To put this in perspective, if you look at studies using normal horses the response can be as low as 20 uIU/mL.

If correct upper limits for baseline, fed low S/S or fasted, are used, there's no need for those "challenge" tests.

As an aside, I don't use the term ID https://wp.me/p2WBdh-18f .
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Naomi,


As Kirsten already noted Rice Bran can be problematic for many IR horses and since she's a breed that can be IR until you are able to get an insulin level on her I would err on the side of not feeding that nor letting her out on grass. 

As far as feeding amounts - you have her listed as currently being 800lbs which would be FAT for a 12.3 pony.  Looking at the pictures you shared they're not the best angle to judge, but she does not look THAT fat.  If you don't have a weight tape could you perhaps use the calculator https ://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Weights%20and%20Measures/How%20to%20Find%20Ideal%20Body%20Weight.pdf to determine her current weight?  I would expect her to be about 550 - 600lbs at that height and to feed her accordingly you need to feed either 1.5% of her current weight or 2% of her ideal weight - whichever is more.  IF she truly is 800lbs she should be eating no more than 16 pounds a day TOTAL (including hay and enough carrier to get her supplements in).  You have her as eating somewhere between 12 - 18lbs of hay and a pound of dry beet pulp which is maybe more than she needs.  Even erring on the high side she should be eating no more than 12lbs a day max if she really is 600lbs. 

To administer Prascend, I'm a fan of syringing to make sure it all gets in the horse or pony, but you can use a the end of a carrot and core it out to hide the pill in it, a small piece of apple and stick the pill in it, a peanut shell or a pony pill pocket (not the molasses version) to get her to eat it.



Re: Summer Temps

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes.  Hot temperatures can increase the strength of the digital pulses because the blood vessels in the extremities dilate. They won't be pounding as in laminitis, just easier to feel.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Summer Temps

nikkibob1994@...
 

Has anyone else noticed an increase of strength  in digital pulse (not a quickening) during the heat of summer when no other circumstances for the horse has changed? 
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: Insulin response to eating

nikkibob1994@...
 

Is there a ratio or formula used to show how much greater the insulin response is to glucose in ID horses vs normal horses? For instance, if glucose is elevated in a normal horse 3 times its fasting level,  and the insulin response also is 3 times the fasting level, then would it be expected to see in an ID horse that if glucose is elevated 3 times its fasting level then insulin could potentially be elevated 6 times its fasting level showing a disproportionate increase?
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thanks Dr Kellon!! What is angood option, I do want to add itt back to see if it helps with his arthritis. I was looking at platinum's supplement that has boron and magnesium, but I think I am already giving enough mag in the two uckele products.  I wish uckele made a formula with boron :)

Thanks Nancy
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Vit C in Farriers formula 2x strength--safe for IR horses?

celestinefarm
 

Hi Mary,
The Vit C in FF is not high and there are supplements ECIR recommends for specific situations that includes Vit C. so I would not be concerned with it. However, depending on what your friend's horse is consuming regarding bagged feeds, etc. there are some issues with FF . IF this horse is only receiving hay and this supplement, then it will be very deficient in selenium.  As you know, our area of Michigan has very low selenium in the soil. FF has no added selenium. You would need to know what else the horse is eating to determine if it is receiving adequate selenium. Also, hays in this area are typically low in copper, zinc, possibly high in manganese,  FF is low in copper and zinc. The analysis on the bag is reported as ppm. An 85 gram serving provides 92 mgs copper, 249 mgs zinc, and 1.2 mgs.iodine if I did my conversions correctly. That may not be enough copper and zinc to overcome high iron. Iodine might be too low.  Depends on what else horse is eating.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Hypothyroidism or T3 conversion disorders in horses

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Euthyroid sick can happen with an chronic condition, including EMS. It's primarily something picked up on lab work rather than clinical signs.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Hypothyroidism or T3 conversion disorders in horses

Casey76
 

Sorry, Dr Kellon, I mean that she doesn’t really fit the profile for Euthyroid Sick Syndrome.

She does have EMS.  She doesn’t have PPID
--
Katrina

 

Mar 2017, Sunderland, UK

Tartine Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Katrina%20and%20Tartine

Tartine Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4725


Re: Still unsure on grass consumption during exercise

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Angie,

Grass is fine during the ride and allowing some grazing when walking in the first 2 to 4 hours after a ride is fine too. Have you tested his insulin lately?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Vinnie update ~56.25 mg Invokana

Sherry Morse
 

I think he looks great Nancy and glad to hear Summer is doing better as well!



Re: Hypothyroidism or T3 conversion disorders in horses

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I agree this is most likely non-thyroidal illness. Not  sure why you think she doesn't fit an EMS profile. The elevated insulin and easy weight gain certainly fit. Chronic infections can be an issue with PPID.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Still unsure on grass consumption during exercise

Angie Mikkelson <angieorr@...>
 

I’ve asked before but I haven’t gotten any real hard answer to this question. So I just finished my horses 2nd 50 mile endurance ride. He did well metabolically and completed the ride with good vet scores on gut sounds etc. I’m still confused about how much grass he can have during and after a ride though. At this particular ride there was a TON of grass, I let him pick here and there on the trail.  At the holds we gave him mash of beet pulp, rice bran and oats as Dr Kellon recommended but then I did let him graze for about 10 minutes before going back out on trail. Is doing that going to come back to haunt me some day? I want this horse to do 100’s but if he’s going to, he needs to be able to eat whatever is available and some rides are very remote and basically grass is the only option. 
Also following the ride when I’d take him out for walks to stretch him he really wanted to graze, can he have some grass or not? I feel like the meanest endurance horse mom ever when everyone’s horses are grazing around camp and I’m walking around pulling my horses head up :-( and if that’s what needs to happen fine, but if he can graze I’d like to let him. 

Thanks in advance for any advice...
--
Angie in ND, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Angie%20and%20Bear


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

None known is not the same thing as none exist.

This is the MSDS for sodium tetraborate (20 Mule Team Borax) https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/21010.htm There are several plain boron supplements for humans on the market which would be much more suitable for experimentation than a laundry additive.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Hypothyroidism or T3 conversion disorders in horses

Casey76
 

Hello,

Tartine’s latest blood tests have returned a lower than LLN T3, with mid-range T4.  Lab notes that primary hypothyroidism in horses is almost unheard of, and is more likely to be related to non-thyroid illness (Euthyroid sick syndrome); but have recommended a TRH test if I want to pursue this further.

Is there anything else I should be testing for? (ESR, CRP, other inflammatory markers?) Other than EMS and PSSM, she doesn’t really fit the profile for ESS.  She isn’t starved (sadly quite the opposite and we are having a devil of a time getting weight off her), doesn’t have chronic infections, is well supplemented with zinc, copper and selenium (bloods show selenium levels to be perfectly adequate)

Updated case history with all blood tests uploaded today.  Still waiting for the xrays to come from the vet
--
Katrina

 

Mar 2017, Sunderland, UK

Tartine Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Katrina%20and%20Tartine

Tartine Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4725


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Lesley Fraser
 

You sound pretty busy already, but if you have any spare time there’s a great recipe in the ECIR files for suitable horse treats made from flax seed, unsweetened apple sauce and cinnamon. It's useful as a general treat, but it's easy to squish a Prascend tablet inside a square of it without Butterscotch noticing. Perhaps your daughter could take on the role of pony cake baker.

Lesley

--
Lesley and over the bridge Omar,
11-2012, Cambridge, UK

Omar - Case History

20201 - 20220 of 282352