Date   

Re: Summer Temps

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes.  Hot temperatures can increase the strength of the digital pulses because the blood vessels in the extremities dilate. They won't be pounding as in laminitis, just easier to feel.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Summer Temps

nikkibob1994@...
 

Has anyone else noticed an increase of strength  in digital pulse (not a quickening) during the heat of summer when no other circumstances for the horse has changed? 
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: Insulin response to eating

nikkibob1994@...
 

Is there a ratio or formula used to show how much greater the insulin response is to glucose in ID horses vs normal horses? For instance, if glucose is elevated in a normal horse 3 times its fasting level,  and the insulin response also is 3 times the fasting level, then would it be expected to see in an ID horse that if glucose is elevated 3 times its fasting level then insulin could potentially be elevated 6 times its fasting level showing a disproportionate increase?
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thanks Dr Kellon!! What is angood option, I do want to add itt back to see if it helps with his arthritis. I was looking at platinum's supplement that has boron and magnesium, but I think I am already giving enough mag in the two uckele products.  I wish uckele made a formula with boron :)

Thanks Nancy
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Vit C in Farriers formula 2x strength--safe for IR horses?

celestinefarm
 

Hi Mary,
The Vit C in FF is not high and there are supplements ECIR recommends for specific situations that includes Vit C. so I would not be concerned with it. However, depending on what your friend's horse is consuming regarding bagged feeds, etc. there are some issues with FF . IF this horse is only receiving hay and this supplement, then it will be very deficient in selenium.  As you know, our area of Michigan has very low selenium in the soil. FF has no added selenium. You would need to know what else the horse is eating to determine if it is receiving adequate selenium. Also, hays in this area are typically low in copper, zinc, possibly high in manganese,  FF is low in copper and zinc. The analysis on the bag is reported as ppm. An 85 gram serving provides 92 mgs copper, 249 mgs zinc, and 1.2 mgs.iodine if I did my conversions correctly. That may not be enough copper and zinc to overcome high iron. Iodine might be too low.  Depends on what else horse is eating.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Hypothyroidism or T3 conversion disorders in horses

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Euthyroid sick can happen with an chronic condition, including EMS. It's primarily something picked up on lab work rather than clinical signs.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Hypothyroidism or T3 conversion disorders in horses

Casey76
 

Sorry, Dr Kellon, I mean that she doesn’t really fit the profile for Euthyroid Sick Syndrome.

She does have EMS.  She doesn’t have PPID
--
Katrina

 

Mar 2017, Sunderland, UK

Tartine Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Katrina%20and%20Tartine

Tartine Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4725


Re: Still unsure on grass consumption during exercise

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Angie,

Grass is fine during the ride and allowing some grazing when walking in the first 2 to 4 hours after a ride is fine too. Have you tested his insulin lately?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Vinnie update ~56.25 mg Invokana

Sherry Morse
 

I think he looks great Nancy and glad to hear Summer is doing better as well!



Re: Hypothyroidism or T3 conversion disorders in horses

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I agree this is most likely non-thyroidal illness. Not  sure why you think she doesn't fit an EMS profile. The elevated insulin and easy weight gain certainly fit. Chronic infections can be an issue with PPID.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Still unsure on grass consumption during exercise

Angie Mikkelson <angieorr@...>
 

I’ve asked before but I haven’t gotten any real hard answer to this question. So I just finished my horses 2nd 50 mile endurance ride. He did well metabolically and completed the ride with good vet scores on gut sounds etc. I’m still confused about how much grass he can have during and after a ride though. At this particular ride there was a TON of grass, I let him pick here and there on the trail.  At the holds we gave him mash of beet pulp, rice bran and oats as Dr Kellon recommended but then I did let him graze for about 10 minutes before going back out on trail. Is doing that going to come back to haunt me some day? I want this horse to do 100’s but if he’s going to, he needs to be able to eat whatever is available and some rides are very remote and basically grass is the only option. 
Also following the ride when I’d take him out for walks to stretch him he really wanted to graze, can he have some grass or not? I feel like the meanest endurance horse mom ever when everyone’s horses are grazing around camp and I’m walking around pulling my horses head up :-( and if that’s what needs to happen fine, but if he can graze I’d like to let him. 

Thanks in advance for any advice...
--
Angie in ND, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Angie%20and%20Bear


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

None known is not the same thing as none exist.

This is the MSDS for sodium tetraborate (20 Mule Team Borax) https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/21010.htm There are several plain boron supplements for humans on the market which would be much more suitable for experimentation than a laundry additive.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Hypothyroidism or T3 conversion disorders in horses

Casey76
 

Hello,

Tartine’s latest blood tests have returned a lower than LLN T3, with mid-range T4.  Lab notes that primary hypothyroidism in horses is almost unheard of, and is more likely to be related to non-thyroid illness (Euthyroid sick syndrome); but have recommended a TRH test if I want to pursue this further.

Is there anything else I should be testing for? (ESR, CRP, other inflammatory markers?) Other than EMS and PSSM, she doesn’t really fit the profile for ESS.  She isn’t starved (sadly quite the opposite and we are having a devil of a time getting weight off her), doesn’t have chronic infections, is well supplemented with zinc, copper and selenium (bloods show selenium levels to be perfectly adequate)

Updated case history with all blood tests uploaded today.  Still waiting for the xrays to come from the vet
--
Katrina

 

Mar 2017, Sunderland, UK

Tartine Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Katrina%20and%20Tartine

Tartine Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4725


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Lesley Fraser
 

You sound pretty busy already, but if you have any spare time there’s a great recipe in the ECIR files for suitable horse treats made from flax seed, unsweetened apple sauce and cinnamon. It's useful as a general treat, but it's easy to squish a Prascend tablet inside a square of it without Butterscotch noticing. Perhaps your daughter could take on the role of pony cake baker.

Lesley

--
Lesley and over the bridge Omar,
11-2012, Cambridge, UK

Omar - Case History


Vit C in Farriers formula 2x strength--safe for IR horses?

Mary M.
 

HI 
I have a friend who's horse got laminitis after being turned out on long grass in boarding situation and got laminitis--hot feet, bounding pulse but no rotation. That was a few years ago and she has him on dry lot situation now at new boarding place.   
She feeds Farrier's Formula Double Strength.  I noticed it has 650mg Vit C per 85 gram serving. 3,480mg/lb.  Iron is high in water and in our area hay. And i know Vit C increases iron absorption.

Is this a safe supplement for a horse with metabolic issues?
thanks 
--
Mary Marzec, Chelsea MI, 2012
Mary/Katie Case History


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Lorna Cane
 

Naomi,many of us use peanut shells in which to hide the tablets/capsules. Just remove one or both halves of the peanut carefully,add the meds and close back up.Bob's your uncle.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Naomi,

Just want to say that many of us don't have a money orchard in the back forty. We have learned,after years of frustration and anxiety, how to manage these horses with the least amount of money possible. Using compounded pergolide,instead of the more expensive Prascend is a start. 
Others will chip in to give you ideas about other substitutes.
While I'm here,soy hull pellets are a good substitute for beet pulp,as a carrier. They have almost the same nutritional profile,but....tada....just need to be dampened down(to avoid choke),instead of being rinsed/soaked/rinsed.They are less expensive,too,at least here in the Kingston area .
Hang in.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Vinnie update ~56.25 mg Invokana

Bobbie Day
 

He looks so good Nancy , you continue to amaze me. And Vinnie’s will to keep going. You wouldn’t know looking at him now what he’s been through.
Well done ❤️
--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus , NAT , C&IR March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I have always soaked the next day's beet pulp 24 hrs (until the next feeding) for convenience, but in hot weather try to keep it cooler.  Best to rinse at beginning and end, but if you can only rinse once I'd do it at the end and be thorough.

Rice bran is risky.  It's very high in starch, which can be very bad for an EMS horse, or a PPID horse with elevated insulin.  Soy hull pellets are safe and can be fed soaked or dry with the beet pulp, or instead of it.  I wet them to get the minerals to stick, then feed before they turn to mush.  If you can find Ontario Dehy Timothy Complete cubes (Feed Store to your Door near Edmonton has them), they are safe, too.  They can be soaked, or steamed in hot water, to make a damp mash for the minerals to stick to.  1 cup dry expands significantly when soaked to a mash.

Without checking her insulin it's hard to know if the pasture she is getting is an issue.  If she only has PPID, and you keep it well controlled with pergolide, the pasture probably won't be a problem.  Fall pasture, during the seasonal ACTH rise, is probably riskiest for a PPID horse.  If her insulin shows that she has EMS, the pasture will be an issue.  Small amounts of high sugar grass can cause laminitis in EMS horses.  Not knowing her insulin makes the risk hard to evaluate, but the info in your Case History doesn't seem to suggest she has EMS.

One tiny slice of carrot to feed her pergolide is fine. 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Butterscotch and Naomi first post

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

My vet charges me 250$ for the PPID panel at U Guelph.  I was sure that included a markup, but maybe it doesn't?  Shipping is extra, as are all other related fees (call out, pull, processing,  etc) etc.  

Considering your vet did not do the tests you asked for from the start, resulting in significant added expense to you, I hope they offer you a discount, at least for the cost of the original ACTH test or their call out fees.

However, we would recommend retesting ACTH at least after 3 weeks at the prescribed dose to make sure it's effective anyways, and also testing in mid-late July as a general rule before the seasonal rise ramps up.  So if you want to arrange the PPID panel for mid-late July, you'll be covering all your bases for retesting ACTH.   Since Butterscotch isn't laminitic, nor does she sound like she has EMS based on your Case History (despite being a mix of high risk breeds!), you can probably wait on the insulin and glucose until then, too.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

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