Date   

Alfalfa

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


Re: Use of curcumine

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Curcumin, from the spice turmeric, won't help with metabolic laminitis because the process is not inflammatory.

Curcumin has tremendous potential as an antioxidant/antiinflammatory supplement but is hampered by poor absorption and hepatic inactivation after it is absorbed. There is active research going on to develop ways to improve absorption and the inclusion of piperine (isolated from black pepper) reduces the hepatic inactivation.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Request markups for upcoming hoof trim

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 12:12 AM, Diane Pingrey wrote:
After xrays, she does have founder with a ski tip on the left coffin bone and that probably started when she lived on an irrigated grass pasture in 2017-2020.  I suspect her big problem is due to her high blood calcium level which is blocking much of the absorption of magnesium and phosphorus throwing that ratio out of balance, and contributing to IR-like symptoms, thus she  behaves like an IR horse. I suspect she needs a calcium to magnesium to phosphorus ratio of 1.1-1-1 up to 2-1-1.  So far, only vitamin A reduces the blood calcium on mineral blood tests, but the magnesium and phosphorus are stuck low, in spite of supplementing for those 2.  I'm slowly increasing her Uckele vitamin A dose.....
Hard to know where to start here. As already mentioned, her hormone levels are normal but given her age I'd consider TRH stimulation to rule out PPID. Metabolic laminitis affects all 4 feet, not just 1. Mechanical factors from overloading that LF, poor hoof care and you mentioned white line disease could all easily combine to cause that type of radiographic change.

Horses handle dietary calcium differently from other animals so blood levels mirror what they had recently eaten. High normal levels like this or even a bit higher are common in older horses, possibly because cortisol rises with age. The upper normal blood calcium isn't interfering with magnesium and phosphorus levels. They reflect diet too. Deficiencies are common. In any case they don't cause laminitis or some "IR-like" condition.

Vitamin A does not lower calcium. In fact, the higher the vitamin A, the higher the blood calcium.

You should move your posts to either Horsekeeping or Hoof.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Request markups for upcoming hoof trim

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 05:02 PM, Cass in NorCal wrote:
FORCO, Ration Plus, and Uckele Absorb-All.
Bear with me here. I'm catching up on some unread threads. FORCO and Ration Plus are only prebiotics, no live organisms in them. That's not a criticism, just a distinction.
 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Research on Alfalfa and IR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There is no such thing as an immature amino acid.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Use of curcumine

Diane Pingrey <dianehorsevol@...>
 

My experience with my horse Denny was that curcumin helped reduce her inflammation from arthritis in her right knee bone spur, but she was not receiving it at the time she had her bout of laminitis.

It also helps reduce the inflammatory pain from my post-mastectomy lymphedema.

--
Diane P and Denny in Lincoln, CA 2021

Denny Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Diane%20and%20Denny
Denny Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263875


Re: Research on Alfalfa and IR

Diane Pingrey <dianehorsevol@...>
 

I had read in one of my orthomolecular books that alfalfa has an immature amino acid that can negatively affect humans, not sure about horses.  I can't recall the name of that specific immature amino acid or find where in the book I read that (when I come across it again, I'll post the name of it along with the name of the book).  

Has anyone ever heard anything about an immature amino acid in alfalfa?


--
Diane P and Denny in Lincoln, CA 2021

Denny Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Diane%20and%20Denny
Denny Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=263875


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Brenda Gasch Mittelstadt
 


-- Hi Rita. 

You are doing amazing work helping Stetson (as are all the wonderful advisers here)! I also did the, “oh if I’d only known and done better”, when my two went laminitic on untested gorgeous hay fit to fatten calves in lush Wisconsin.  I still have to work on the guilt, and know I did my (sort of ) best with what I knew. I also work on accepting the finite nature of us all.

It has now been a year plus since I found ECIR via my vet. So glad I did. I follow conversations to learn and often find it stunning how much I did not know or that stuck with me (if I heard about it) regarding dietary/nutrition issues! It’s feels good to know more. 

My two, the riding horse - Stormy is the only one with a case file, are doing okay. Little ups and downs. Much better weight levels. I’ve adjusted their grazing timing and allowance. They seem pretty happy about a few hours graze in spring till our grasses get safer. I still have trouble not indulging them and me. A life balance between quality and quantity is important for the three of us. 

It’s such a joy to see them out in a pasture being horses. I hope we can continue that but I also came from a Colorado background where the horses were fed hay year round so it can be done. But where I am is almost impossible with farm acres and grass on all sides and rides and a Mustang determined to have the experience of grazing. I’m trying hard to make the mix work for us.

Hoping the best outcomes for you and your peace!

-Brenda

September 2020, Dodgeville WI USA

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Brenda%20and%20Stormy/Stormy%20and%20Brenda  .
Stormy Photo Album

 


Re: Dexamethasone and insulin

Chris Smoot
 

Thank you Dr.Kellon for such a quick reply!
--
Chris and Sage ( also Sue)
McLeansville, NC 2020

Case History Sage https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chris%20and%20Sage/Sage%20Case%20History.doc


Re: Dexamethasone and insulin

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There might still be a residual effect after 11 days but it would be minimal. This reading, and your last one, confirm EMS.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Dexamethasone and insulin

Chris Smoot
 

Sage had a hives episode  on June 3rd and was given 10 ml Dexamethasone IM as well as 10 ml oral Banamine. Hives improved the next day. On June 14th the vet drew blood for insulin, glucose and acth. Insulin was 75 uU/ml. Last August after a laminitic episode it was 26. Could the Dexamethasone cause the increase? Glucose was 93 last Aug 101
 
We will try to update her history asap. Thanks in advance.
--
Chris and Sage ( also Sue)
McLeansville, NC 2020

Case History Sage https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chris%20and%20Sage/Sage%20Case%20History.doc


Riosa hoof mark-ups

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Heather,

I've added mark-ups to Riosa's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

You've done a really nice job of regaining control of the trim in general, so now it's more bout targeting the remaining problem spots. Hind toes still need to get shorter horizontally while the front ones are really close to where they need to be. Heels are still underrun so need to target them a bit more. Frogs appear to be getting stronger and her heel bulbs have relaxed back some, so the "butt cracks" are healing up up nicely. Concavity is starting to develop, wall flares are growing out and what flares are there have been taken out of weight bearing so are able to grow out without being continually stressed. Try to allow the frogs to develop as much callousing as they can by only trimming of ragged tags while leaving most of the body of the frog alone. Check both of the collateral groove depths in each foot before trimming to assess what material you have to work with in that foot. The lime stars are approximately where to check for the depths:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/8819/3247387?p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

At their deepest point, near the back of the foot, they should both be 7/8" to 1" deep (C1 and C2), while in the front, half just behind the tip of the frog, the depth should be 3/4" (C3). Less than this means there is no vertical depth to work with so any adjustments will need to wait. If the two sides of the foot aren't even, assess whether it's because one side is too short or one is too long: if too long, lower the long side; if one is too short, leave them both alone as lowering the correct one to match the short one gives you two shorts and two wrongs don't make an overall right. Make sense? Rocker only the backs of the heel buttresses while leaving the rest of the underrun heel behind those points alone. Allow the bars in the bar-wall unction area to be the highest, weight bearing area. The rasp the wall adjacent to them out of weight bearing  - this will encourage those heels to stand up straighter and taller while preserving the vertical depth that is already lacking. See this discussion, esp. figures 2 and 3, for visuals and more in-depth info:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0

RH dorsal: Green line follows the angle of the healthier, better attached growth toward the ground. The blue area is the remaining flared wall that can be removed. Note that where the green line would hit the ground, you have already set the bevel so that there are no lever forces being applied to this remaining damaged wall material. Put your head as close to the leg as possible and look straight down onto the hoof from above. You should be able to see where it deviates out from the healthier growth from above.

RH lateral: Green line shows where the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule will eventually line up once the entire foot stands up straighter. The orange line shows where the heels would be. Blue area is where to shorten the toe back more.

RH sole plane: Blue hashed area at the toe corresponds to the blue on the lateral view. Blue areas on the outside of both heel buttresses are where to heavily bevel the wall completely out of weight bearing so that the bar and bar-wall junction are the highest points - orange squares.

RH sole: Blue hashed areas are where to bring the toe back and the heel walls inward. Orange squares are where the new buttresses end up. Lime C1, C2, C3 are approximately where to measure collateral groove depths.

LH dorsal: Again, green line is where the healthy wall wants to be while the blue area is the remaining flare.

LH lateral: Same idea as the RH.

LH lateral sole plane: Green line is the same as on the lateral view, blue area is the remaining dorsal wall flare. Blue hashed are at the toe is where to bring the toe back and roll it under. Slight blue lies in the heels are where to rocker the backs of the buttresses.

LH sole plane: Blue areas are where to bevel the walls out of ground contact so that the bars remain the weight bearing area.

LH sole: Same idea as the RH. Toe back then roll under; take the wall in the heels out of weight bearing.

LF dorsal: Green line highlights the slight remaining lateral wall flare. Blue is the flare that can be removed.

LF lateral: Same discussion as for the hinds.

LF lateral sole plane: Blue area corresponds to the blue on the lateral view, which is where to back the toe a bit and roll it under.

LF sole: Same discussion as the hinds.

RF lateral: See notes for the other three feet.

RF lateral sole plane: Blue area corresponds to the blue on the lateral view = area to shorten the toe horizontally then roll it under.

RF sole: Blue hashed areas are where to pull the toe back and the walls in the heel buttresses out of weight bearing. Orange squares are where the resulting highest area of the heels will be.

You want to watch her before you trim and note how she moves: looking for solid, heel-first landings. Definitely when she is in boots, work toward getting the same without the boots. If she is at all comfortable without the boots, start leaving them off for short periods and work to slowly extend the time without based on her comfort level. After you make changes, note how/if anything changed, then plan accordingly.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Research on Alfalfa and IR

Rita Chavez
 

Ok, interesting. All I can say now is thank God for this group, because I'd be more confused than ever trying to understand all of this! 

On a good note, Stetson is walking better this morning. Still gently, but not literally limping with each step. And I think I see a bit of weight loss already! I took another body pic and will post to my album later. I can see a dip between his flank and belly area. I also have a muzzle for him now and we'll give that a go tonight. 

--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

celestinefarm
 

Nancy, if you have any feed mills in your area that mix feed for livestock, they will either have bags of soy hull pellets or can get them for you. Soy hulls are used in many commercial feeds and are available through whoever distributes vitamin pellets, magnesium oxide, other minerals molasses , etc. that mills use to make feed. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Laminil product

jessica skene
 

Hi!

 

Thanks, It was my taught, I wanted to be sure tho!
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 14 years old, historic of founder and Laminitis, IR / EMS

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory2019.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Lorna Cane
 


Nancy,try soy hull pellets Idahoe, or Blaine County, or name of some feed mils you know  ,in your search.
Or search feed mills Blaine County, or feed mills Idahoe. Then search soy hull pellets  .
Masterfeeds makes them but I don't know if they distribute in Blaine County.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Laminil product

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jessica,

This has come up before, just search the message archives for Laminil.

Here's one message from Dr. Kellon to get you started:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/261904?p=,,,20,0,0,0::Created,,laminil,20,2,0,80951203

Bottom line is that this product targets inflammatory conditions and winter laminitis and hormonal-induced laminitis aren't inflammatory processes, so it's not likely to be helpful.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Use of curcumine

jessica skene
 

Does curcumine (concentrate) could help a horse with laminitis or not? More hormonal or winter laminitis?

--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 14 years old, historic of founder and Laminitis, IR / EMS

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory2019.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf


Laminil product

jessica skene
 

Hi all!

Just found out about this product, do you have any info about this product and if it works?

https://laminil.us/laminil-mobile/what-is-laminil/?fbclid=IwAR0S4G7PPLfNx33-KxHgxKx9rmoK7vxDDmt9j9n00goFCTIsOEX-MYG6kPM

For my mare that is controled in winter laminitis but always founder mid febuary as soon as the shedding start, possibly because of hormones change and strong heat of spring but I am not abble to control those, still wait for my chasteberry to see if it will helps, but if it doesn't work, and that I need to use the product to stop ovulation, the price is so indecent, not sure I will be able to pay that, as all her supplements and vitamins already cost me a lot :( 

 

So do you know about this product?
--
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 14 years old, historic of founder and Laminitis, IR / EMS

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory2019.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf


Re: Adding pictures - no image

Lynn
 

Hi Kelly - I don't know if this helps but I have a fairly new iPhone and this is what I do. I access the ECIR website from my phone via Safari. I plug Lynn and Relevante into the search box which takes me to my signature block. I click on my album. When that opens I click on "Add Photos"...It will then say "Select Files" so I click on the open folder icon...that gives me the choice of accessing images from my photo library, take a photo or browse. I click Photo Library. That brings up the images I took. I simply click on the images [I can do 6 or 7 at a time] ...hit add at the upper right hand corner which takes me back to my ECIR photo album screen where i hit add again at the lower right hand corner. Once i click "add" it takes a minute or two for them to load but once they do, my ECIR photo album page opens and I can see the images I loaded.  If I click on the photo I added...it is already in jpg format. All I have to do is just hit the edit button and rename it (inside my album). Doing it this way means i don't have to format or "save" anything because it's going straight from my phone "photo library" to my album.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

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