Date   

Re: Dr. Redden's technique

cymraes58
 

I have no idea why my signature and links disappeared. I'll try to remember how to add them. I have x-rays from last winter I will upload. 
--
Sheila and Daniel & Max
Sierra foothills CA
2019


Re: Flame summer issues

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It's odd that he would sweat while working but not at other times if this is anhydrosis. The terbutaline test would be safe and I'd have that done along with a lung exam.

Equiwinner patches do not work. Their whole sales pitch is complete nonsense.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dr. Redden's technique

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

  Your first instinct was correct. The last thing he needs right  before the trip is a new methodology. If you want to discuss the Redden techniques please take it to ECHoof. Make sure he has good foam padding in his boots.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Blood work ?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The G:I ratio and proxies are most useful when insulin levels are borderline. Your pony's is very obviously abnormal. To start, stop the TC Lite, go on the emergency diet and get your hay analyzed.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Blood work ?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kerry,

You'll be getting a full welcome message soon but what the bloodwork says is that the pony is IR and is in the danger zone for continued laminitis given her elevated insulin.  While you're waiting for the welcome letter please read the emergency diet section of the website - https://www.ecirhorse.com/DDT+E-diet.php - and put her on the emergency diet immediately.  No more TSC Lite (which is a misnomer as it's very high in starch from an IR perspective) and weigh and soak all of her hay until you are able to test it and confirm that it is actually low enough in ESC + starch that it does not need to be soaked.  You can replace the TSC Lite with rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp or Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes to use as a carrier for her minerals, flax, vitamin E and salt. 




Re: Safety of Equident mushroom supplement for IR/Cushing's horse?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Alana,

As far as I know, this should be safe. It is a common immune supporting mixture used in humans. I wouldn't delay EORTH surgery for this supplement.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Blood work ?

Kerry M
 

My daughter’s pony recently had an episode of lamintitis.   She is making improvements.  However the EMS calculator has me confused.  I’m not really sure what the norms/range should be and what the bloodwork is telling me.   The vet just said her insulin was high, but there seems to be a lot more to this. 


gloucose - 78 mg/dL
insulin  - 114 Uiu/mL

G/I Ratio- 0.68
RISQI- 0.094
MIRG- -8.9

Can someone help me understand these values?

Thanks. 


15 year old 13.2 pony (not overweight)
diet -
4 cups Triple Crown lite (9.3 NSC)
Vermont blend 
flax
vitamin e
grass hay (3 flakes AM/PM and 1flake midday  - soaked in PM)

--
Kerry M in NJ 2021


Re: Dr. Redden's technique

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Sheila
Our more experienced trimmers will be able to comment on the Redden method in general. If you could upload any recent photos or radiographs, we can comment more individually for Daniel. One thing I can say, is that any hoof appliance is only as good as the trim under it, and I believe the Redden clogs require a very specific trim. Personally, I would be wary of using a new appliance on a long trip that can’t be easily removed. 


I’d also make sure his diet and medication are really dialled in before the trip. If you could update his case history, we can comment in more detail.

Just a quick housekeeping note—would you be able to add your case history and photo album links to your  signature please?

What follows is our usual welcome message for new members, which it appears you never received even though you’ve been a member for a while. There may be information here that is fresh for you, so please read it through. 

 

Hello 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group.We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

 


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Dr. Redden's technique

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sheila,

Sorry that Daniel has had such a hard time of it.

If he is barefoot, there is no need to add a complicated shoeing package to move him and it's not a substitute for a good trim. If the Redden system is not attached to a meticulous trim, it will make things worse. Plus, if it gets dislodged in any way during the trip that will cause even more problems.

A good trim (which is needed at any time) plus the boots would be my choice.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: High sodium in hay

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Angie,

Yes, sodium in the hay is the same as the sodium part of plain salt.

All hay has excess potassium.The amount of salt you supplement is based on what is needed to meet the horse's daily requirements, not on the potassium number.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Dr. Redden's technique

cymraes58
 

We are relocating 1200 miles away in early August. Daniel has been struggling again with his laminitis because my last farrier disappeared and he ended up going 10 weeks before I found another farrier. This guy didn't remove hardly any hoof so tried another farrier a week later who did a better job. But I'm concerned about the long trip for him. A vet is pushing me to use the Redden shoeing method. Honestly I'd never heard of it.  Any opinions? My trimmer is coming back in two weeks for another trim. I was hoping another trim and wearing boots on the trip would suffice. He will be in a box stall.  Any advice is appreciated. 
--
Sheila and Daniel & Max
Sierra foothills CA
2019


Re: Hay Test

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Sue,

Contrary to the advice on that site,we recommend the 603 test, as opposed to the 600 or the infrared 601. The 603 has been found to be more accurate for our purposes.

(603) Trainer $65 – utilizes traditional analytical methods to determine protein, fiber, carbohydrates and minerals. Includes moisture, dry matter, digestible energy, crude protein, estimated lysine, acid detergent fiber, neutral detergent fiber, Ethanol Soluble Carbohydrates (ESC), Water Soluble Carbohydrates (WSC), starch, non-fiber carbohydrates (NFC), calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium, iron, zinc, copper, manganese, molybdenum.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Hay Test

Sue Ring
 

Hey Melanie,

HayPillow.com has ALOT of informative links including this one on how to acquire the tools and the steps to take to test your hay........ https://www.thehaypillow.com/blog/how-where-to-test-your-horses-hay-interpret-results
--
Sue R in NC 2021

CASE HISTORY:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Shifty

PHOTO FILES: 


 


Re: IR horse losing weigh

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kathy,

Before you make any diet changes it would be a good idea to get bloodwork (insulin and glucose and vitamin E and selenium at the very least).  How long ago was the move?  What is the hay like compared to what they were eating?  Has it been tested?  Is she being fed individually or is she being fed in a herd setting?  How does this compare to how she was being fed prior to the move?

You can do a search of the archives but we do not recommend Stabul 1 Plus for IR horses.  You could add extra Stabul 1 in but I would again not do that until you have bloodwork completed and you know exactly how much she is eating now vs. what she should be eating for her ideal weight.




Flame summer issues

 

Flame started having his “summer issues” today. I noticed that he’s been having a hard time cooling off & recovering from our normal light rides this week. Today when I went to get him out of his pen he was breathing hard & ribs heaving but not sweating. (He usually sweats when I lunge or ride him.) I put him in the cross ties & took his temp which was 100.9. I rinsed him off with cool water & put him in front of a fan. He is now switched to a stall with a fan rather than his outside shaded pen (probably for the rest of the summer). He’s done this sporadically over the summers but it seems to be happening more consistently. I just titrated him up to his fall dose of Pergolide (5mg) on 7/5 & I am waiting 3 weeks to have his ACTH, insulin & glucose tested. I though if I got on titrating him earlier this summer that we could possibly avoid this- it obviously didn’t work. This week he also stopped eating his Timothy Balance Cubes & his beet pulp. I’m now leaning towards possibly a form of anhydrosis since he does sweat when working but not during these heavy breathing & rib heaving episodes. Should I do a terbutaline test or is it contraindicated for PPID & EMS/IR horses? Are there any drugs or supplements that I can give? Do the Equiwinner Patches work? Any advice or suggestions? Thanks in advance!

--
Beth & Flame dx 2013 & Diana dx 2020

NV Oct 2013

Flame Case History

Flame Pictures

Diana Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Beth%20and%20Diana  




Re: Safety of Equident mushroom supplement for IR/Cushing's horse?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Alanna,

I can't comment on the Equident from an IR/PPID perspective; but I can tell you that I have a friend who used it for 6 months on a horse who had mouth ulcers and it was a very expensive experiment with no benefit to the horse.




Re: Hay Test

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Melanie,

All the information on hay testing is on the website: https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diet.php.  You want the 603 Trainer test from Equi-Analytical.




Re: High sodium in hay

coffincomplex@...
 

I think you need to double check your math. There are only 454 grams in a pound, so even if your hay was literally just a pile of salt, your numbers aren't possible. ;) By my math, your hay has 1.2 grams of sodium/lb if it is 0.267% (0.00267 x 454 grams).
--
Alanna
May 2018
San Diego, CA
Buster's case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Alanna%20and%20Buster  .


High sodium in hay

Angie
 

My hay is usually pretty consistent from year to year but this year the sodium is real high.  It's usually .052 to .114 % or .235 to .517 grams/lb.
This year it's .267% or 1,209 grams per pound.  Feeding 16 lbs of hay means 19,344 grams of sodium fed per day. Average horse needs about 12 grams per day.
Potassium is always high in the hay so I add salt to balance.  I've never paid much attention to the sodium level in the hay until this year's cutting. I guess I'm wondering if the sodium listed in the hay analysis is the same as sodium chloride in salt.  Any thoughts?
--
Angie
October 2020, Mendocino County, CA

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Angie%20and%20Jacob
Jacob's Photo Album:

 


Re: Hay Test

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Melanie
Excellent idea to get hay tested! There are several documents with information about this in our Files in the "Diet Balancing" folder. 
main@ECIR.groups.io | Files


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

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