Date   

Re: Clover-Levels back to normal but requesting overall diet advice

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jess,

For us to really be able to help you we need a case history with exact information on what Clover is currently eating as well as what - if any - medication he is currently on. The Triple Crown Safe Starch isn't on our approved list because it's not consistently tested.  We do recommend Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes and those can be fed in place of hay at a 3:4 ratio, but you still need to add in salt, flax and Mg at the very least.




.


Re: When to retest

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jennifer,

Have you looked at the body condition scoring guide?  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Case-History-Help  I would put Fergus closer to a 6 than a 7 as he doesn't have a trough down his back and has some good muscle, but you have the ability to put hands on him and feel if he has a hard crest or if the fat over his ribs feels spongy or firm.  What is his current weight?  (Information on how to estimate that is also in the CH help link above).  Even though weight tapes aren't always accurate using one will at least give you a general idea of where he's at right now and then if you measure the same way each time you'll be able to gauge if he's losing weight or not.

As far as testing again, I would want to get him checked sooner rather than later.  Since the Thyro-L has little to no effect on insulin it shouldn't be part of your decision on when to recheck him.




Re: Bullitt - Body condition and Hoof Questions

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The early stages, before heading, can also be high because fiber is low. Most important thing when planning hay is to cut very early in the morning or after a few cloudy days. Most timothy hay has empty seed heads in it but it can still have plenty of nutrition for an EMS horse. Definitely avoid any that has very thick stems and is straw colored.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Saraphina IR

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Cyndi,

You can use Stabul-1, or if you can source them Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes as a carrier.  For either you can add a bit of water to 'fluff them up' and make the minerals stick.  You can also use soybean hulls or soybean hull pellets (both usually found at a feed mill). 

For pergolide you can dissolve it in hot water in a 3 cc syringe and administer that way, use a peanut shell or a small piece of carrot (I like to use the last 1/2 inch or so of a carrot as it's easier to carve a hole out in those) or a beetibite. 




Re: Saraphina IR

CYNDI CARLSON
 

Hi Jaini,
Thank you for this information!!
I STOPPED the nutrient safe choice a week ago, I have been having a hard time getting her to eat beet pulp( rinsing and soaking)tried different favors to add she turns her nose up
To all of it. Also giving vitamin E, magnesium,salt and flax is tough. Is there ANY grain I can use to mix these in? What about her pergolide, how can I make sure she’s getting it without sticking it in something?
Great news my horse was out of her stall this morning, ears up staring at the house waiting for me like she use too! It’s been two weeks she wouldn’t come out.Today is a good day!
Thank you!


--
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cyndi%20and%20Saraphina ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cyndi%20and%20Saraphina )

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266150 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266150 )


Re: Too Thin and Weepy Eyes

Stacey Smith-Bohn
 

Sherry, I thought the ACTH test would tell us if we need to increase his Prascend?  What will the Stim test show?
--
Stacey Smith-Bohn, New Jersey, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Stacey%20and%20Terry
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261301


Conversion

Daune Gatenby
 

I have spent hours trying to convert my files.   No go.    
--
Daune and Monty
Southeastern Massachusetts 
2021


All ready sent

Daune Gatenby
 

I sent my case history and all of my (monty’s ) x-rays.   It just appears that no one can see it.   I have an apple ipad and your site does not work well with it.   I am saving up for computer but with all other expenses its taking a while.   Thanks for the help (answering).  My case history and several xrays are there you just cant see them.   Will not write again.
Daune and Monty
Southeastern Massachusetts 
2021


When to retest

Jennifer Green
 

I’m sure this question gets asked all of the time, but when would the best time to retest Fergus be? Should I wait until he’s been off Thyro-L for a while, or maybe when I’m happier with his overall weight/body score? What body score with you give him right now based on his photos? A 7?

--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Re: Purina Integrity SuperFibra

Mary Ann
 

Thank you Kristen. I've printed these links and will be calling to make an appointment to speak in person with my vet to discuss Rosie's case. And I will increase her Prascend starting tomorrow. 
At this late stage, her insulin/glucose may not be controlled or brought down to a normal level, but it's worth a try.


--
Mary Ann & Rosie - Nova Scotia, Canada - Joined August 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252134
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20Ann%20and%20Rosie


Re: Beware of pelleted feed

 

Oh, thank you, Kris, for thinking about all of the other horses at this awful, awful time. You saved Baron over and over again; please, please do not blame yourself - I know Baron would not blame you either, for doing what should have been best for him. 

Many cyber hugs to you - I know what a big hole in the heart Baron's last journey will cause. 


--
Jaini 
Merlin and Maggie (over the bridge), Gypsy, Ranger
Smithers, BC 09

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Saraphina IR

 

Hi, Cyndi, and welcome to the group!  

You have gotten some great information, but I *must* stick my two cents in here. Please stop the Nutrena Safe Choice. It is anything BUT safe!  In the files, we have members' analyses of various feeds: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds  Nutrena "Safe Choice" (Gah, that makes my blood boil!) has clocked in at 12.9% starch in 2020. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/Nutrena%20Products/Nutrena%20SafeChoice%20Special%20Care%202020-09-16.pdf and a whopping 16.4% in 2006 https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/Nutrena%20Products/Nutrena%20Safe%20Choice%202006-03-18.pdf  

One pound of this would blow the feet off of any of my IR horses. 

 

The best way to deal with reduced weight in any horse is to increase the hay. Here is a checklist of weight loss/lack of weight maintenance, in the Core Diet file: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Weight%20loss%20check-list.pdf  
1) Cushing's is not controlled, and a pergolide increase is needed (this is surprisingly common with Cushing's horses)
2) Insulin resistance is not controlled, and diet needs to be tightened up. Check the insulin levels, review diet.
3) Poor chewing ability, even though the teeth look okay, because the jaw muscles are weak due to age or to uncontrolled Cushing's
4) Teeth need attention
5) Insufficient protein, or insufficient safe calories (again, surprisingly common
) 6) Parasites
7) Ulcers
8) Other health issues, such as renal failure, liver disease, cancer (all rare compared to above)

For fun, here is the "Two Apples" story, to illustrate how what seems to be an insignificant or okay amount of extra starch/sugar can have a big effect. 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/228585?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%252Fsticky,,%22two+apples%22,20,2,0,28082719 

Hi, folks - thank you for your indulgence. I just wanted this in a post so that I could find it more easily, as searching for "two apples" brings up all of the official welcome posts.

Also, (and here comes the two apples story again - I can just hear everyone groaning), even a small amount of seemingly safe treats can make a difference. I was privileged to rehab an IR Swedish Warmblood who had an episode of laminitis secondary to a rich clover pasture.  Things seemed to be going well (he was at a boarding barn), but he was still hesitant when turning around on the concrete barn aisle. I then discovered that he had been receiving two weeny little apples a day (not the kind you buy in the grocery store - theses were the dinky little things that are just about all we can grow up here). Those two apples a day, in a 1300 pound horse, were enough to stall the healing process. Once the apples were removed, within 2 days he was turning with ease in the barn aisle.  Make sure your gal isn't getting anything besides feed that is below the !0% ESC plus starch, with starch less than 4%; and no apples etc as treats.

 I hope this helps, and, again, welcome!
--
Jaini 
Merlin and Maggie (over the bridge), Gypsy, Ranger
Smithers, BC 09

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Bullitt - Body condition and Hoof Questions

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I believe you also want to cut your hay before seed heads emerge, or after they drop (although that will leave you mostly with straw and it will not have much nutrition or digestibility), but not while they are on the plant.  I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong...  There is information on that if you search past messages about when to cut hay in terms of maturity, weather,  time of day etc. 

Dr Kellon's NRC Plus course is excellent.  It will give you the knowledge and confidence to balance your own hay for years to come. 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Bullitt - Body condition and Hoof Questions

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Sarah,

Sounds like things are going reasonably well....there's always something!  Lol

There seems to be 2 schools of thought: "they are built that way and changing it will cause bigger problems", or "that conformation is wrong because of the trim and means the trim needs to be fixed".  Now you know where your farrier stands on that.  There is probably a bit of truth to both, depending on the situation, but slowly changing the trim and watching how Bullitt responds might tell you which way is best for him.

There's no reason you can't buy a good quality rasp (ie from a farrier supply, not from a hardware/feed store) and do the adjustments Lavinia shows in her markups.  Just a little at a time.  Your farrier probably won't notice, and if he does just tell him you do a little mid-trim touch up.

Very interesting that increasing the Prascend helped with their appetite.  A few members have mentioned that, although usually we associate it with inappetence.  I wonder if that's a sign the meds are helping them feel better and the dose is just right? 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Saraphina IR

CYNDI CARLSON
 

Hi
Thank you for the links! I’m excited about Philip coming!
I have been concerned about Saraphina drinking enough water that I put a bucket in her stall .She has a automatic waterer but I can’t tell how much she’s drinking.This way I can tell she is drinking.


--
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cyndi%20and%20Saraphina ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cyndi%20and%20Saraphina )

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266150 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266150 )


Re: Purina Integrity SuperFibra

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Mary Ann,

Rosie's very low insulin combined with glucose above the reference range is what you need to look at on her lab results.  This is abnormal and very likely due to the development of diabetes (similar to Type 2 diabetes in humans).  She also has uncontrolled PPID and diabetes is a late stage outcome of PPID.  If your current vet is not worried, a second opinion can be done online or over the phone.  You could contact Dr Kellon here, Dr Frank at Tufts, or any other veterinarian specially in in EMS/IR and PPID.

Diabetes can be treated with a strict diet that minimizes glucose (the same as the IR diet), and medications to increase insulin secretion and help get glucose into the cells so it can be metabolized for energy as well.  One of the authors below suggests feeding more fat but I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440056/#!po=73.8095
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20383993/

I'm not suggesting she had laminitis.  It's impossible to tell from the rads and photos of her right hind if she has in the past.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Saraphina IR

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Cyndi,

For a probiotic try Uckele's Absorb-All or Quadra Fac:

https://uckele.com/quadra-fac-2000.html

https://uckele.com/absorb-all-4.html

Use the code ECIR at checkout for a 5% discount.

Make sure that Saraphina is drinking enough water as hard manure can be a symptom of dehydration.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Saraphina IR

Cindy Q
 
Edited

Hi Cyndi

For probiotic, this post by Cass lists a few that Dr Kellon said suit https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/250704 . Among that list, I personally have used Bio-vet Equine Generator. It's a good price for the high number of CFUs of various probiotics especially if you are not getting the smallest pack. Jessicac Hempfling who distributes it sells direct with free shipping within US, here is her FB business page. I have found her quick to reply by facebook messenger when I had questions. If you do not have facebook, she has a simple website as well https://www.facebook.com/Bio-Vet-by-Jessica-Hempfling-107045054565117/ and https://hempflingbiovet.square.site/home
--
Cindy and Glow (over the rainbow bridge) - Sep 2017, Singapore
ECIR Primary Response





Re: Magnesium

Candice Piraino
 

Hi Jennifer,

I actually feed my herd 58% magnesium oxide from the local feed store. It is a 50 pound bag and cost me $35.00. It lasts me at least a year for 3 equines. You might try calling around to local feed stores and asking if they carry it, or could order it for you. 

Also, Uckele has some you can purchase online as well. 
--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History

Shark's Photo Album 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @www.arkhavenfarm.com

 


Re: Saraphina IR

Candice Piraino
 

HI Cyndi,

This is GREAT news that Philip is able to come to you and SO QUICKLY! That's fabulous!

If he is recommending California Trace, here is the link. I always like to tell people, if you can spare it, try to go with California Trace Plus. It has way more bang for your buck and your horse will thank you! https://www.californiatrace.com/

Keep us posted!
--

Candice Piraino

Primary Response Team

September 2018, Summerfield, FL

Shark's Case History

Shark's Photo Album 

PHCP Barefoot Trimmer @www.arkhavenfarm.com

 

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