Date   

Re: Labs results for review

vicky monen
 

On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 06:41 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:
Martha has made 2 really good points about getting Samson's weight down, and about how he is only getting half the effect of pergolide by dosing 2x a day.
I have posted a new pic in my album to see if you think he is a body score of 7 as I do?  Also with the splitting of the prascend, we are essentially saying he is getting basically 1 mg of the 2 mg split per day, correct?  I am going to start to titrate him up to a single dose per day instead of splitting the dose.  What symptoms should I look for that would suggest the prascend is too much, as I am titrating him up?    As he seems to be doing well on the current dosage.

Is there a better time of day to give the single dose? 

He is currently not eating his breakfast well. I wonder if the splitting of the prascend would affect him more in the morning than the evening. 

Sorry for all the questions, but once again I get myself caught up in the small details. 

Thank you for continued  help! 

Vicky Monen and Samson

Aug 2015, Alpharetta Ga.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1226

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Vicky%20and%20Samson


Re: Magnesium

 

Hi, Linda. 
Magnesium is always fed as a compound. I don't know what form is regular to you but all of them are white powders. Among your choices include magnesium oxide, widely available as a feed supplement or in food grade on line. Magnesium carbonate is available from good quality equine supplement houses like Uckele. https://uckele.com/magnesium-carbonate.html    MagOx is the most concentrated, so you need less.  Start with a teaspoon and use just enough water to stick to your carrier. Expensive magnesium supplements marketed to horse people (MagRestore, for example) are selling you human grade magnesium at a huge mark up. MagOx is cheap, widely available and just as effective and bio-available, as far as anyone know. You feed less and save money. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Saraphina IR

 

Hi, Cyndi.
You can see there are dozens of ways to get your mare started on the nutritional supplements she needs. It will take some trial and error on your part. Horses in pain can be fussy eaters. Patience! You will figure it out. Read this: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9b%20Pulling%20it%20Together/Introducing%20New%20Feeds%20and%20Supplements.pdf 
My suggestions:  
1. Start by finding a mineral carrier she will eat. Safe options include RSR beet pulp, Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes, and the several bagged feeds on this list:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/2.%20Safe%20Feeds/Safe%20Bagged%20Feeds.pdf
You can combine two or more safe feeds into just what she likes. Some horses really like forage- based feeds, like the balance cubes. Some want a little tasty Nuzu Stabul1 as a taste tempter added to the balance cubes or the BP. Some like feed dry, others soupy.  Find what she’ll eat and try it plain when she’s hungry, not after 5 lbs of hay. Mine didn't much care for RSR Beet Pulp until I added ½ cup of Stabul1 or some TC Timothy Balance cubes to it. Now they are eating pounds of it every day.
2. Add supplements a little at a time. You don't need to hit her with 3/4 cup ground flax, 1 tablespoon of salt, magnesium oxide, and Vitamin E all in one day. Add a teaspoon of one, then 2 teaspoons, etc. 
3. Salt is needed now. The easiest way is to dissolve 1 tablespoon of iodized salt in warm water and sprinkle it on her hay. If it's hot, go up to 2 tablespoons or more. Some horses really like salt, and a teaspoon of salt added to the mineral carrier can make it more appealing to them.
4. Don't throw away the carriers your try and she rejects. Hold onto them for a while. Four months from now, she may like them.

To source what you need online, here are a couple. For Stabul1, try Chew.com, which will deliver to your door: https://www.chewy.com/s?query=Stabul&nav-submit-button= If you don't know which flavor she will like, start small with the Stabul nuggets in a flavor or two. Fenugreek is popular and smells like maple syrup to me. The pellets are essentially the same as the nuggets but pelleted smaller.  For California Trace, order at the website: https://www.californiatrace.com/about/california-trace-plus/ Ask for a sample! Try the pellets or powder, depending on what she likes. For Uckele, go to this website: https://uckele.com/horse.html 

You're doing great! Your head may explode with all the new routines, but it gets easier, I promise. An open mind is your greatest asset right now.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Saraphina IR

ferne fedeli
 

I use an old Phillips head screwdriver to make my Pergolide hole in the middle of a piece of carrot.
--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


Re: Saraphina IR

 

Hi Cyndi,

Great job, Saraphina!

I poke the pergolide into the cheek pocket staying clear of the teeth.  Way back toward the back of the tongue.  Then watch for her to swallow.  Others dissolve in water in a small oral syringe and dispense it that way.  I’ve done that too.  The only time I put it in feed is cupped in my hand but I’ve had one flip it across the stall doing that.  Avoid putting it in a feed dish with her meal.  You may find it days later where you least expect to.

I began by mixing a small amount of salt into the feed and sprinkling the rest over the soaked hay.  I’ve also dissolved it in hot water and poured that over dry hay.  You can do the same with the other minerals.  Many of us use vitamin E in capsules, which I’ve never had a horse reject, but there are water soluble versions available to syringe in.  You could open the capsule contents into her feed but it is generally too gummy to push through a syringe.  I’ve never had one of my horses refuse to eat hay because of the minerals and salt I add and once they acclimate to the flavor, they will take more in the feed.

As you increase her pergolide, you will most likely find that she’s less particular about what she eats.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: When to retest insulin?

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

There are also some studies that show that reducing weight to normal has a significant effect on reducing insulin.  So I would really work on getting Rose's BCS down to a 5 or 4.5.  Soaking hay will help but you may need to reduce her hay intake as well.  I would start with removing 0.5 lb/day and see if she starts to slowly lose weight.  If that's not having any effect, or if her weight loss stalls, reduce by another 0.5lbs.  You might have to go as low as 15 lbs a day to get her down to a BSC of 5 (that's what my non-exercising 15.1 HH Paso Fino gets, plus 0.75 lbs carrier for supplement, and he is about 900 lbs with a BCS of 4.5).  But just work your way down slowly.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: When to retest

Jennifer Green
 

I don’t even want to say what the weight tape shows. He originally taped at 1015 lb and now tapes at about 910 lb. he’s only 12.3 hands so those numbers are pretty shocking. The up side is it’s going down, but it still seems like a lot. 
--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album


Re: When to retest insulin?

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Sharon, 

I always give it 1-2 weeks after any diet change before checking insulin.  I understand that insulin will continue to go down over time, but the biggest drop is seen almost immediately, as per the 2 posts by Dr Kellon that I quoted below. 

Diet changes take effect within 1 or 2 days, although insulin may continue to improve over time.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


AND
 
The insulin response is a function of both the composition of the meal and the insulin sensitivity/glucose tolerance of the individual. A fit racehorse will respond very differently from an IR pony. The IR pony will show different insulins with different meals but insulin sensitivity may improve over time when the load is kept low. For example, insulin receptors that becoming internalized after chronic exposure to high insulin may be released again over time so insulin response on day 1 of the new diet is different from insulin response after a few weeks.--Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001



--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Saraphina IR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You could try 4 oz of wheat bran (actual weight) or wheat germ (actual weight) per pound of beet pulp (weight before soaking) for flavor. Wheat germ for people is available in much smaller sizes than wheat bran if you want to try it.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Magnesium

Starshine Ranch
 

Hi Candice,
How much do you feed and how do you disguise it?  I have tried repeatedly to get my two mares to take magnesium and they just refuse it.  

Sherry,
Is MagOx different from feeding regular magnesium?

--
Linda in CA  2020  Midnight and Ostara
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20Midnight%20OStara


Re: Saraphina IR

Bobbie Day
 

Just wanted to comment on these products that others have mentioned, I have fed CT many times as a “replacement “ for my custom mixes. When I’m waiting for my new batch of hay tests for example. And my horses do very well on it, I’m not sure where in CO you are but I’m in SE Utah , it’s an amazing product and fast shipping. And as Lavinia has mentioned Uckele’s absorb all is wonderful as well. My little Cushing’s mare really loved Forco which is also recommended but now that I don’t have to satisfy her picky (sob) appetite I buy absorb all and mix it in my custom mix and give it to all my horses. When I do my mix I throw in some of that, slippery elm and some fenugreek and it smells amazing.
Don’t give up the fight, you’ll get the hang of all this and it will become second nature !


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus , NAT , C&IR March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Clover-Levels back to normal but requesting overall diet advice

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jess,

For us to really be able to help you we need a case history with exact information on what Clover is currently eating as well as what - if any - medication he is currently on. The Triple Crown Safe Starch isn't on our approved list because it's not consistently tested.  We do recommend Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes and those can be fed in place of hay at a 3:4 ratio, but you still need to add in salt, flax and Mg at the very least.




.


Re: When to retest

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jennifer,

Have you looked at the body condition scoring guide?  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Case-History-Help  I would put Fergus closer to a 6 than a 7 as he doesn't have a trough down his back and has some good muscle, but you have the ability to put hands on him and feel if he has a hard crest or if the fat over his ribs feels spongy or firm.  What is his current weight?  (Information on how to estimate that is also in the CH help link above).  Even though weight tapes aren't always accurate using one will at least give you a general idea of where he's at right now and then if you measure the same way each time you'll be able to gauge if he's losing weight or not.

As far as testing again, I would want to get him checked sooner rather than later.  Since the Thyro-L has little to no effect on insulin it shouldn't be part of your decision on when to recheck him.




Re: Bullitt - Body condition and Hoof Questions

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The early stages, before heading, can also be high because fiber is low. Most important thing when planning hay is to cut very early in the morning or after a few cloudy days. Most timothy hay has empty seed heads in it but it can still have plenty of nutrition for an EMS horse. Definitely avoid any that has very thick stems and is straw colored.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Saraphina IR

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Cyndi,

You can use Stabul-1, or if you can source them Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes as a carrier.  For either you can add a bit of water to 'fluff them up' and make the minerals stick.  You can also use soybean hulls or soybean hull pellets (both usually found at a feed mill). 

For pergolide you can dissolve it in hot water in a 3 cc syringe and administer that way, use a peanut shell or a small piece of carrot (I like to use the last 1/2 inch or so of a carrot as it's easier to carve a hole out in those) or a beetibite. 




Re: Saraphina IR

CYNDI CARLSON
 

Hi Jaini,
Thank you for this information!!
I STOPPED the nutrient safe choice a week ago, I have been having a hard time getting her to eat beet pulp( rinsing and soaking)tried different favors to add she turns her nose up
To all of it. Also giving vitamin E, magnesium,salt and flax is tough. Is there ANY grain I can use to mix these in? What about her pergolide, how can I make sure she’s getting it without sticking it in something?
Great news my horse was out of her stall this morning, ears up staring at the house waiting for me like she use too! It’s been two weeks she wouldn’t come out.Today is a good day!
Thank you!


--
Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cyndi%20and%20Saraphina ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cyndi%20and%20Saraphina )

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266150 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266150 )


Re: Too Thin and Weepy Eyes

Stacey Smith-Bohn
 

Sherry, I thought the ACTH test would tell us if we need to increase his Prascend?  What will the Stim test show?
--
Stacey Smith-Bohn, New Jersey, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Stacey%20and%20Terry
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261301


Conversion

Daune Gatenby
 

I have spent hours trying to convert my files.   No go.    
--
Daune and Monty
Southeastern Massachusetts 
2021


All ready sent

Daune Gatenby
 

I sent my case history and all of my (monty’s ) x-rays.   It just appears that no one can see it.   I have an apple ipad and your site does not work well with it.   I am saving up for computer but with all other expenses its taking a while.   Thanks for the help (answering).  My case history and several xrays are there you just cant see them.   Will not write again.
Daune and Monty
Southeastern Massachusetts 
2021


When to retest

Jennifer Green
 

I’m sure this question gets asked all of the time, but when would the best time to retest Fergus be? Should I wait until he’s been off Thyro-L for a while, or maybe when I’m happier with his overall weight/body score? What body score with you give him right now based on his photos? A 7?

--
J.Green 
MA, USA
2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album

4641 - 4660 of 267856