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Re: Saraphina IR
Go, Cyndi !!
Another good supplement carrier is soy hull pellets . You only need to add a bit of water (feeding dry 'can' cause choke) ,which softens them up in seconds .No R/S/R. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario
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Pergolide dosage advice on Ruger please
riggslippert@...
Hello,
As I detailed in another message, we made it to Washington intact. Ruger traveled like a champ. His Cornell ACTH result in early July was 21.4 pg/mL (RI 2-35 pg/mL). I was thinking that, once he is settled in his new home, I would inch his pergolide dosage from 2.5 mg QD to 3.0 mg QD in anticipation of the seasonal rise. Does this sound like a good plan? Thank you! -- Aunna October 2018 Oakland County, Michigan, USA Cadet Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet Ruger Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger Cadet Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102
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Update on Cadet, we made it to Washington, Lavinia please look at new radiographs
riggslippert@...
Hello,
Cadet gave me a scare by developing sore feet at the boarding barn during the 4 days that we were driving from Michigan to Washington. I had a veterinarian check him for two days prior to his transport to be as sure as possible he was able to stand for his journey. It took 17.5 hours and he and Ruger arrived in amazing shape, not dehydrated or sweaty, having eaten almost all the hay they were provided. The transport company was excellent at providing updates on their progress. Whew! Since his arrival, he has been in a dry lot with Ruger, eating soaked hay (we're waiting on analysis). I have not detected any lameness or increased pulses, but the lot is small enough all he can do is walk. He'll be turned out on the track with a sealed muzzle for 2-3 hours at a time initially, until we can do more to manage the small amount of grass on it. Biochemical profile from early July showed normal triglycerides (64 mg/dL, RI 10-90 mg/dl) and liver enzymes. Cornell laboratory results showed higher glucose (112 mg/dL, RI 71-122 mg/dL) and insulin (137.51 mIU//mL, RI 10-40 uIU/mL) than April, but excellent ACTH results (13.6 pg/mL, RI 2-35 pg/mL). I was unsure whether to increase his pergolide in anticipation of the seasonal rise. I will update his CH as soon as I have more consistent computer access. I had new radiographs taken on 7/6/21, ten days after his most recent trim. I would appreciate any comments on them prior to his next trim (with a new trimmer, very hard to find out here) on 7/26/21. As always, I am so grateful for the support of Dr. Kellon, this group, and it's moderators. I don't think I would have been able to bring Cadet out with us without their help. -- Aunna October 2018 Island County, Washington, USA Cadet Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Cadet Ruger Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Aunna%20and%20Ruger Cadet Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=84102
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Re: Saraphina IR
Thank you for all the great advice!
Now off to save my Saraphina! -- Cyndi Carlson in Colorado 2021 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cyndi%20and%20Saraphina ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cyndi%20and%20Saraphina ) https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266150 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266150 )
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Re: Too Thin and Weepy Eyes
Stacey Smith-Bohn
Sherry, questions about the weepy eyes, if it is related to early PPID would it happen just from July to early fall as this has been the past few years? If it starts in mid to late July each year is it connected to the fall seasonal rise, and if so am I too late to test? As you may remember, since you have been kind to help us in the past, we have tested ACTH in the spring the past 3 years and he didn't test positive but has been showing signs in the fall and winter that has raised concerns. Then this last winter he had horrible founder and vet put him on 1 Prascend a day. We did ACTH, Insulin, Leptin, Glucose, T4 on July 13th hoping that it would tell us where we stand and whether we need to increase his meds. I thought I had read that the Stim test was not helpful if they are already on medication for PPID. I want what is best for the horse but I want to better understand what this additional test can show us. Will it just show us if it is not under control or will it give us some indication how much more Prascend he needs? Should we go ahead and increase his medication to see if he gains weight???
-- Stacey Smith-Bohn, New Jersey, 2021 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Stacey%20and%20Terry https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261301
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Re: Labs results for review
On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 05:22 AM, vicky monen wrote:
I have posted a new pic in my album to see if you think he is a body score of 7 as I do?Vicki, he’s at a bit of an angle so it’s hard to see his neck and rump profile—there seems to still be some lumpy fat on his rump? Without hands on, I’d be hesitant to give a number, 7 might be pretty close, but I’d like to say that he looks a lot healthier than most of the haffies I see here—they are a very tough breed to manage without working them hard all day, every day. If hay soaking helps to counter reduced exercise, it’s worth trying. -- Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID) Canberra, Australia 2010 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles
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ECIR Group 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference -- Breakout Sessions
Do you need help —
Details:
When: The weekend of August 13 - 15, 2021. Where: ECIR Virtual Conference Room at the location of your choice. Full information and registration www.nolaminitis.org Thanks to all who have registered already! We have over 200 attendees with 23 days to go! As always, many thanks to our generous Benefactors who strongly support the needs of the ECIR Group members. DIAMOND California Trace Soft-Ride Equine Comfort Boots Auburn Laboratories, Inc. - APF ForagePlus Uckele Mad Barn Custom Equine Nutrition - VT Blend HorseTech PLATINUM Black Horse Spirit, LLC Progressive Hoof Care Providers GOLD Anderson Feed - NuZu Feed Omega Fields Equi-Analytical My Best Horse Hay Chix Island Pharmacy Beet-E-Bites Triple Crown Pure Sole Ontario Dehy SILVER Sox for Horses BRONZE New England Equine Balance Yank Gulch Equine Great Plains Forage Balance Ration Plus On behalf of your hosts, Cindy McGinley and Sherry Morse, and the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference Committee. -- Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer 2020-2021 Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room
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Re: Too Thin and Weepy Eyes
Stacey Smith-Bohn
Sue thanks, I will ask my vet about it.
-- Stacey Smith-Bohn, New Jersey, 2021 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Stacey%20and%20Terry https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261301
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Re: Labs results for review
On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 06:41 AM, Kirsten Rasmussen wrote:
Martha has made 2 really good points about getting Samson's weight down, and about how he is only getting half the effect of pergolide by dosing 2x a day.I have posted a new pic in my album to see if you think he is a body score of 7 as I do? Also with the splitting of the prascend, we are essentially saying he is getting basically 1 mg of the 2 mg split per day, correct? I am going to start to titrate him up to a single dose per day instead of splitting the dose. What symptoms should I look for that would suggest the prascend is too much, as I am titrating him up? As he seems to be doing well on the current dosage. Is there a better time of day to give the single dose? He is currently not eating his breakfast well. I wonder if the splitting of the prascend would affect him more in the morning than the evening. Sorry for all the questions, but once again I get myself caught up in the small details. Thank you for continued help! Vicky Monen and Samson Aug 2015, Alpharetta Ga. https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1226 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Vicky%20and%20Samson
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Re: Magnesium
Hi, Linda.
Magnesium is always fed as a compound. I don't know what form is regular to you but all of them are white powders. Among your choices include magnesium oxide, widely available as a feed supplement or in food grade on line. Magnesium carbonate is available from good quality equine supplement houses like Uckele. https://uckele.com/magnesium-carbonate.html MagOx is the most concentrated, so you need less. Start with a teaspoon and use just enough water to stick to your carrier. Expensive magnesium supplements marketed to horse people (MagRestore, for example) are selling you human grade magnesium at a huge mark up. MagOx is cheap, widely available and just as effective and bio-available, as far as anyone know. You feed less and save money. -- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos
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Re: Saraphina IR
Hi, Cyndi.
You can see there are dozens of ways to get your mare started on the nutritional supplements she needs. It will take some trial and error on your part. Horses in pain can be fussy eaters. Patience! You will figure it out. Read this: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9b%20Pulling%20it%20Together/Introducing%20New%20Feeds%20and%20Supplements.pdf My suggestions: 1. Start by finding a mineral carrier she will eat. Safe options include RSR beet pulp, Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes, and the several bagged feeds on this list: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/2.%20Safe%20Feeds/Safe%20Bagged%20Feeds.pdf You can combine two or more safe feeds into just what she likes. Some horses really like forage- based feeds, like the balance cubes. Some want a little tasty Nuzu Stabul1 as a taste tempter added to the balance cubes or the BP. Some like feed dry, others soupy. Find what she’ll eat and try it plain when she’s hungry, not after 5 lbs of hay. Mine didn't much care for RSR Beet Pulp until I added ½ cup of Stabul1 or some TC Timothy Balance cubes to it. Now they are eating pounds of it every day. 2. Add supplements a little at a time. You don't need to hit her with 3/4 cup ground flax, 1 tablespoon of salt, magnesium oxide, and Vitamin E all in one day. Add a teaspoon of one, then 2 teaspoons, etc. 3. Salt is needed now. The easiest way is to dissolve 1 tablespoon of iodized salt in warm water and sprinkle it on her hay. If it's hot, go up to 2 tablespoons or more. Some horses really like salt, and a teaspoon of salt added to the mineral carrier can make it more appealing to them. 4. Don't throw away the carriers your try and she rejects. Hold onto them for a while. Four months from now, she may like them. To source what you need online, here are a couple. For Stabul1, try Chew.com, which will deliver to your door: https://www.chewy.com/s?query=Stabul&nav-submit-button= If you don't know which flavor she will like, start small with the Stabul nuggets in a flavor or two. Fenugreek is popular and smells like maple syrup to me. The pellets are essentially the same as the nuggets but pelleted smaller. For California Trace, order at the website: https://www.californiatrace.com/about/california-trace-plus/ Ask for a sample! Try the pellets or powder, depending on what she likes. For Uckele, go to this website: https://uckele.com/horse.html You're doing great! Your head may explode with all the new routines, but it gets easier, I promise. An open mind is your greatest asset right now. -- Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012 ECIR Group Moderator Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder Cayuse Photos Diamond Photos
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Re: Saraphina IR
ferne fedeli
I use an old Phillips head screwdriver to make my Pergolide hole in the middle of a piece of carrot.
-- Ferne Fedeli Magic & Jack 2007 No. California
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Re: Saraphina IR
Hi Cyndi,
Great job, Saraphina! I poke the pergolide into the cheek pocket staying clear of the teeth. Way back toward the back of the tongue. Then watch for her to swallow. Others dissolve in water in a small oral syringe and dispense it that way. I’ve done that too. The only time I put it in feed is cupped in my hand but I’ve had one flip it across the stall doing that. Avoid putting it in a feed dish with her meal. You may find it days later where you least expect to. I began by mixing a small amount of salt into the feed and sprinkling the rest over the soaked hay. I’ve also dissolved it in hot water and poured that over dry hay. You can do the same with the other minerals. Many of us use vitamin E in capsules, which I’ve never had a horse reject, but there are water soluble versions available to syringe in. You could open the capsule contents into her feed but it is generally too gummy to push through a syringe. I’ve never had one of my horses refuse to eat hay because of the minerals and salt I add and once they acclimate to the flavor, they will take more in the feed. As you increase her pergolide, you will most likely find that she’s less particular about what she eats. -- Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response July 2012
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Martha and Logo
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Re: When to retest insulin?
There are also some studies that show that reducing weight to normal has a significant effect on reducing insulin. So I would really work on getting Rose's BCS down to a 5 or 4.5. Soaking hay will help but you may need to reduce her hay intake as well. I would start with removing 0.5 lb/day and see if she starts to slowly lose weight. If that's not having any effect, or if her weight loss stalls, reduce by another 0.5lbs. You might have to go as low as 15 lbs a day to get her down to a BSC of 5 (that's what my non-exercising 15.1 HH Paso Fino gets, plus 0.75 lbs carrier for supplement, and he is about 900 lbs with a BCS of 4.5). But just work your way down slowly.
-- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album
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Re: When to retest
I don’t even want to say what the weight tape shows. He originally taped at 1015 lb and now tapes at about 910 lb. he’s only 12.3 hands so those numbers are pretty shocking. The up side is it’s going down, but it still seems like a lot.
-- J.Green MA, USA 2021 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fergus%20Case%20History CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
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Re: When to retest insulin?
Hi Sharon,
I always give it 1-2 weeks after any diet change before checking insulin. I understand that insulin will continue to go down over time, but the biggest drop is seen almost immediately, as per the 2 posts by Dr Kellon that I quoted below. Diet changes take effect within 1 or 2 days, although insulin may continue to improve over time. AND
The insulin response is a function of both the composition of the meal and the insulin sensitivity/glucose tolerance of the individual. A fit racehorse will respond very differently from an IR pony. The IR pony will show different insulins with different meals but insulin sensitivity may improve over time when the load is kept low. For example, insulin receptors that becoming internalized after chronic exposure to high insulin may be released again over time so insulin response on day 1 of the new diet is different from insulin response after a few weeks.--Eleanor in PA -- Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019 Kitimat, BC, Canada ECIR Group Moderator Shaku's Photo Album
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Re: Saraphina IR
You could try 4 oz of wheat bran (actual weight) or wheat germ (actual weight) per pound of beet pulp (weight before soaking) for flavor. Wheat germ for people is available in much smaller sizes than wheat bran if you want to try it.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Re: Magnesium
Starshine Ranch
Hi Candice,
How much do you feed and how do you disguise it? I have tried repeatedly to get my two mares to take magnesium and they just refuse it. Sherry, Is MagOx different from feeding regular magnesium? -- Linda in CA 2020 Midnight and Ostara https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20Midnight%20OStara
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Re: Saraphina IR
Bobbie Day
Just wanted to comment on these products that others have mentioned, I have fed CT many times as a “replacement “ for my custom mixes. When I’m waiting for my new batch of hay tests for example. And my horses do very well on it, I’m not sure where in CO you are but I’m in SE Utah , it’s an amazing product and fast shipping. And as Lavinia has mentioned Uckele’s absorb all is wonderful as well. My little Cushing’s mare really loved Forco which is also recommended but now that I don’t have to satisfy her picky (sob) appetite I buy absorb all and mix it in my custom mix and give it to all my horses. When I do my mix I throw in some of that, slippery elm and some fenugreek and it smells amazing.
Don’t give up the fight, you’ll get the hang of all this and it will become second nature ! -- Bobbie and Desi NRC Plus , NAT , C&IR March 2020 Utah, Nov 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821
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Re: Clover-Levels back to normal but requesting overall diet advice
Sherry Morse
Hi Jess, For us to really be able to help you we need a case history with exact information on what Clover is currently eating as well as what - if any - medication he is currently on. The Triple Crown Safe Starch isn't on our approved list because it's not consistently tested. We do recommend Triple Crown Timothy Balance Cubes and those can be fed in place of hay at a 3:4 ratio, but you still need to add in salt, flax and Mg at the very least.
Thanks, Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge) EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scutch_Scarlet https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78891 .
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