Date   

tiko xrays and hoof photos

Daisy Shepherd
 

lavinia, please review  new shoes 7/12/2021,  xrays 7/12/2021,  hoof photos week of 7/12/2021.  . next farrier appt 8/20/2021.  thank you , daisy and tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Too Thin and Weepy Eyes

 

Stacey, I’m not a vet but I think I would try to increase the dose a bit.  Now is time of year you spoke of getting weepy eyes.  You could decrease it again after the rise but I usually don’t.  The added pergolide will be more effective if you do it soon, as others have mentioned.  One mg seems to be controlling him well otherwise so maybe try 1.5 mg.  The proper gauge is an appropriate ACTH but following symptoms is not a bad way to judge.  In your case, it seems to be topline and eyes.  You may recognize other symptoms as they disappear.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Beet Treats by The German Muffin Co. Equus Magnificus

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: Beet Treats by The German Muffin Co. Equus Magnificus

celestinefarm
 


Re: Too Thin and Weepy Eyes

Stacey Smith-Bohn
 

Thank you Kirsten. I don't think my vet will make it out here again to do more blood work within a week and certainly I don't want to take him off the Prascend at this point.  I did receive the July 13th Cornell results last night and will need some help from my husband to get them posted.  In the mean time the ACTH Baseline is now 26.2 which is up from 18.2 on March 17, 2021.  Although it is still within the reference range I see that it is a significant increase.  He was started on Prascend in early February 2021.  I am still waiting on some guidance from my vet, how would you you recommend that I start to increase his medication and what should I use as a gage to see when we have a good dosage?
--
Stacey Smith-Bohn, New Jersey, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Stacey%20and%20Terry
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261301


Beet Treats by The German Muffin Co. Equus Magnificus

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I searched the files and can't seem to find my answer. Are the Beet Treats by The German Muffin company safe for IR to administer pills? I would be using them two times per day. The bag says they are about 12% NSC.

Thanks Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Dr Kellon - Riosa Tying Up Episode and Treatment help

hdavis
 

Thanks Dr. Kellon.

will check her back when I can and get back to you. Her back has been checked several times and at her last exams and never any indication of soreness.   Bugs were bad last night so she could have been moving around more due to them but I didn’t not see as dark out and I was in the house. However she did urinate in front of me after I gave the Banamine and yes her urine was darker, not sure what colour you are looking for but a darker yellow something like a medium ale beer or slightly darker.

If she indeed does have back pain or shows these Sejm times again can I give Banamine with her being on Invokana. I know you mentioned before if we had an accident or colic which needed Banamine I could do that for short term but wanted to check on this again to be sure it can be used short term.

thanks again!
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




History uploaded

Kimberly Simmons
 
Edited

Hi,

I just uploaded Eclipse's case history. ALL of her numbers are up (and in the case of her T4- down) this year including her ACTH which has always been normal in the past. No hay test yet as our field is still waiting to be done. I work for an Equine Veterinarian and have been managing OK until now. Now I am worried. Could her changes have to do with the drought we were experiencing?
Eclipse gets very little grain, is muzzled during the day and locked in our front pasture at night which has very short grass. We are thinking of turning her run-in stall into her night time dry paddock (the space without grass is smaller than a round pen.

Eclipse gets about 1 lb. of Poulin carb safe a day and a 2 handfuls of Balancer per day (until we get hay and know what we need to supplement).

--

~Kimberly
 
July 2012, NH
 


Anyone can't get insulin back to normal?

lamarleau@...
 

Hello

Last April's blood work was impressive with a big reduction, but insulin was still a little over 363 (normal under 300).  I got excited a bit and got him a grazing muzzle (tough-1 easy breathe) and let him go with his buddies for 15 min once a week (when cloudy). The first few times he could not eat with this at all and got really frustrated, but we got it right with short grass.  Did not change anything else (still soaked hay, omneity, timothy pellets and WIRX).  
Blood work July 13th, insulin went up to 402 by my fault since I let him graze a bit.  No more grazing it is.

From your experience, do any of your horses never get back to normal insulin level?   I know he must go within normal range, but just wondering.

At least he is doing well and my new hay tested 6.1 (esc + starch) so no more soaking....: )))) I hope.  Will test him again soon as well as ACTH to see if we are still good.

Francine
--
Francine & Magic in Quebec Nov 2020
Was a member 10 yrs ago with Shamy


Re: New Cornell Blood Work Uploaded For Yellow Horse

 

Hi, Cindy.
Here's the link to your CH folder. It's more useful to link to the folder because the URL won't change. Individual CH's come and go as they are updated. https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Yellow%20Horse%20-%20Quattro/ 

Please update your automatic signature with the folder link. You can insert it between your date and location. Go to your subscription page, here: 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/editsub
Scroll down to the signature block, near the bottom. 
Paste the link to your CH folder. Add a return or space after the paste to make sure the link is clickable. 
Scroll down to the bottom of the page and SAVE.

Thanks!
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Dr Kellon - Riosa Tying Up Episode and Treatment help

jmc
 

This rather sounds like a PSSM attack, some horses seem to be affected by cold (like mine), some by heat.

My horse rarely has full on tying up episodes, but will slowly get stiffer if not exercised, and will eventually get painful enough to stop eating, his attacks look like colic.

My horse's treatment is Banamine to ease the immediate pain, and methocarbamol to relax the muscles. I give methocarbamol prophylactically as well, when necessary.

He is also IR and PPID; FWIW treating for ppid also helped his PSSM2 symptoms.
--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386


New Cornell Blood Work Uploaded For Yellow Horse

Cindy Galloway
 

Hello and good afternoon.  I have uploaded new Cornell Blood Work on Yellow horse's updated case history here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Yellow%20Horse%20-%20Quattro/2021-07-22%20Yellow%20Horse%20Case%20History.pdf--

Can you please advise on the proper dosage of pracend - he is currently getting 1 pill daily.  Thank you kindly for your help.  


- Cindy
November 2017, Campton Hills, Illinois

Quattro
Yellow Horse


LaminOX

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

LaminOX is 25% off through 7/25/21 with coupon code LAMINOX. https://uckele.com/laminox-3lbs.html
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Previcox and Jiaogulan

 

Hi Chris,

Welcome to the ECIR group!
This welcome is triggered by your first post on the group.  I’ll try to address your main question and follow up with our lengthy welcome materials with lots of good reading.

I searched for the answer to your question and have some links to share.  From what I’ve read while poking around, I would taper off the Previcox before beginning jiaogulan.  NSAIDs will not help his laminitis pain - it’s important that you find out and eliminate what’s causing it (the laminitis as that’s the source of the pain).  The two drugs will counteract each other, due to their opposing effects on nitric oxide.  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Pain%20Relief%20Alternatives%20to%20Bute%20and%20Banamine.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/256871 

While you didn’t ask about contra indications of using PEA, I thought about it but couldn’t think of any.  Did increasing the PEA dose help him?  I would think it might be helpful for the arthritis but not so much the laminitis pain.

Looking forward to reading your case history as our best help comes with that information at hand.

What follows is the reading I mentioned above.

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Previcox and Jiaogulan

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The Previcox will block the Jiaogulan effects. Taper him off by backing to 1/4 for three days then every other day for three more doses. When you get to the every other day you can start the Jiaogulan.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Update on Cadet, we made it to Washington, Lavinia please look at new radiographs

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes.

--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dr Kellon - Riosa Tying Up Episode and Treatment help

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Heather,

Tying-up is caused by exercise. Was she running around? Was her urine discolored?  It's almost impossible to help you without being able to examine her but at this point I'm highly suspicious of a back problem.

Take a capped ball point pen and run it firmly down the middle of her back and over her rump to the tail. Tell us what she does.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Previcox and Jiaogulan

spiritunbroken1@...
 

I know it is not recommended for horses to be on Previcox and Jiaogulan at the same time. Is there a way to transition over from the Previcox to the Jiaogulan without causing a lot of discomfort for our boy? For example, can they be given together if they are offset from each other (giving one in the morning and the other at night)? Or do we have to totally go off the Previcox to go to the Jiaogulan?

I'm sorry we don't have case files uploaded yet. He is a 24 yr Arab gelding diagnosed with Cushings last year. He was on 1/4 tab of Previcox for some Arthritis in his hips and hocks. He was bumped up to 1/2 a tab because of some recent laminitis issues (we have since changed farriers to someone who will correct and trim his feet properly). He is also on 2g of P.E.A. 2x/day for the past few weeks, as he wasn't showing much change with only 2g 1/day.

Thank you,
--
Chris S, Calgary, AB, Canada, 2020


Re: When to retest

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

That's a significant drop in weight already!  Just keep at it.  It takes time.

Now that most of his hay is being soaked, too, you could have his insulin and glucose done again so you can see the effect that, and the other diet changes plus the weight loss, have had.  It's very motivating to see when you are on the right track, and good to know whether or not he would benefit from more dietary changes.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Too Thin and Weepy Eyes

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

It's never to late to test baseline ACTH.  But if he needs an increase in pergolide, now is the time to start increasing the dose.  The TRH Stim test really should be done outside the seasonal rise though so if you don't do that soon (ie in the next week) you might have difficulty interpreting the results.  Generally we recommend taking them off pergolide for at least 3 weeks prior to the stim test, which I don't think you should do now.

Another option is to test baseline ACTH in the middle of the seasonal rise (late Sep, early Oct).  That will show you how high it goes in Terry.  Of course, by then any medication increase will have less of an effect, but you will have a better idea of how well his pergolide is controlling the PPID.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

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