Date   

Re: Hoof Photos uploaded #photo-notice

Donna
 

Thanks Sherry, 

I'll round up some help the next time. It's not as easy as it looks. Farrier is coming in 2 days.

--
Donna
Ontario, Canada
Joined Jul 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Donna%20and%20Cherubs%20Dolly%20Madison
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265892 




Re: Hoof Photos uploaded #photo-notice

 

Hi, Donna.
I have a suggestion to help you see the trim more clearly. Trim the coronary bands so that you can see where the hoof wall starts. It can be a real eye opener to have that half inch of hair removed.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Hoof Photos uploaded #photo-notice

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Donna,

We really would need a full set of photos for Lavinia to do markups (information on that is in the Wiki: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help) but at a glance toes are still way too long and could be taken well back now.




A fit for a Hoofboot for odd shaped donkey hooves?

Carrie
 

My donkey has badly sunken hooves.
I wondered if Lavinia or others, have an opinion wether my donkey would have issues with comfort around the top of her hooves due to the amount of sinkage/pressure they might cause ? 
Also is there is a boot that allows for a more straight up narrow hoof shape? 
A lady on here said Easyboot do narrow ones,  that fit some donkeys. So thats an option to try. I'm totally inexperienced with boots so thought its worth asking the question before researching further.
Thanks in anticipation.

--
Carrie 
March 2021
UK


Re: Too Thin and Weepy Eyes

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Stacey, I agree with Martha here.  My horse, too, just tested within normal range at 28.1 on Jun 28, but physically looks like he really needs a higher dose.  I'm moving him up from 0.5mg to 2mg right now, then will see if physical signs improve.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Diet/Supplement Questions for Cupcake (Alison) + recommended blood work + Prascend dose

 

Wanted to add: Cupcake will be getting trimmed tomorrow (Tuesday, 7/27) and I'll post photos and post-trim video for reference.

--
Rebecca Wyatt, PBHT III
Wilmington, NC - Member since 2007
https://naturespathhoof.com
https://facebook.com/naturespathhoof

Cupcake Case History: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s_Z2ORfcL2JtlYeNBLKU6Ez6cxvtf0ubegFF66StUNM/edit?usp=sharing
Cupcake Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=266055


Diet/Supplement Questions for Cupcake (Alison) + recommended blood work + Prascend dose

 

Hello! We have finally gotten most of the info from the vets (other than most recent blood work (not that recent) - hopefully forthcoming) in Cupcake's case history file. We are working hard to get her stabilized and out of the repeated acute laminitic episodes, which seem to be worse this year than ever. We have a few questions about the emergency diet and supplements below.

Cupcake is around 300 lbs. She currently (as of 7-15-2021) gets fed 2x/day as follows:

AM
PM
  • 1/2 lb TC Timothy Cubes (soaked)
  • 1/2 lb soaked beet pulp without molasses
  • 0.5 mg Prascend tablet (1/2 pink tab)
  • 1 tsp OneAC
 
Questions

1) Without being able to test the timothy/orchard soaked hay, would it be better to feed soaked hay than the Safe Starch Forage? The Safe Starch tends to give her diarrhea when it's the only source of forage, but it wasn't a problem when she was getting hay as well in the past (although the hay was unsoaked before, and she's only getting soaked hay now). Is there another source for free choice forage?

2) Should we start the supplements one at a time or all at once? We have everything but the APF, but are unsure as to how to tell what is working if we start them all at once. Thoughts?

3) Dosages/amounts for a 300 lb mini mare... Do these look correct? Should they be split evenly between meals or all at once?

  • 1/2 lb TC Timothy Cubes (soaked) 2x/day
  • 1/2 lb soaked beet pulp without molasses 2x/day
  • 1 tbsp Iodized Salt
  • 1/3 tsp MagOx 58%
  • 800 IU Vitamin E (2 400 IU capsules)
  • 2 oz stabilized ground flax
  • 3/4 tsp (starting dose) Jiaogulan in water paste AM and PM - 20 min before feeding
  • 8 ml APF Solution? Would this be as needed or daily, indefinitely?
4) When the vet does come, what blood work would be advised, if any, right this time of year? 

5) We've discussed raising the Prascend dose with the vet from the current 0.5 mg, but the vet seems resistant to this idea. How can we work this, if a higher dose is recommended? It doesn't seem to be helping much at the current dose, but there are admittedly spotty feeding records up until the recent past. Should we work on the basic diet first (i.e. give it more time - and how long)?

Thanks in advance for your help!
Rebecca, Alison, & Cupcake in Wilmington, NC
 


Hoof Photos uploaded #photo-notice

Donna
 

I uploaded photos at 2 1/2 weeks post trim. I'm thinking that since she is still acute, that 3 weeks trims would be 
warranted.
Is that too agressive? 
Both front hooves look the same, but I applied conditioner before I remembered to take photos of the off fore.
--
Donna
Ontario, Canada
Joined Jul 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Donna%20and%20Cherubs%20Dolly%20Madison
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265892 




Re: Bale moisture and when to test to ESC and starch

gypsylassie
 

Sheri, that false floor with forced air in your hay shed is so cool !!!   My friends already think I'm obsessed with all things hay, I'll have fun telling them about your floor.  😊
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL


Re: Bale moisture and when to test to ESC and starch

gypsylassie
 

Hi Judy, where I live, N IL, there's enough humidity in the summer, that hay baled above around 15% moisture would be a mold risk.  fwiw
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL


Relevante trim mark-ups

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

 
Hi Lynn,
 
I've added the latest mark-ups to Relevante's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=36909&p=Created,,,50,2,0,0

You had the right idea on the areas that needed attention. Continue to roll the toes under all around. Also need to get on top of the underrun/flaring heels so they can stand up straighter and support him better. I'm marking up the post trim photos, so by now there will be more growth in all areas so you'll need to adjust for that. Measure both collateral grooves at their deepest points in each foot before making changes so you know what you have/don't have to work with. You don't want to inadvertently lower the heel height relative to the height of the front half of the feet.
 
LF dorsal: Green line follows the angle of the new growth down. Blue is the remaining wall flare that needs to be removed.
 
LF sole: Lateral heel is flared along with part of the wall. Bring that flare in and bevel the wall in the heel completely out of weight bearing (blue hashes). Set him up to stand on only the bar and the bar-wall junction, as those will be the remaining highest points - taller than the wall in the heel. Add a rocker to the backs of both heel buttresses toward the heel bulbs (orange). Leave soles, frogs, rest of bars alone except for any crumbling areas or flaps. Roll the toe under.
 
RF lateral: Roll the toe (blue) and rocker the back of the heels (orange).
 
RF sole: Lateral heel has run further forward than the medial one and has flared outward along with the bar. It is slowly twisting the entire hoof capsule medially. Again, take the wall entirely out of weight bearing in the heel and along that lateral side where it is flared and crumbling. Set up the bar-wall junction as the highest, weight bearing point. Do that on the medial heel buttress as well. Rocker the backs of the heel buttresses back toward the heel bulbs. Roll the toe.
 
LH lateral: Roll the toe under.
 
LH sole: Same idea as the fronts. This one is responding the best at the moment, with less flaring remaining thru the heels. Lateral heel has a slight remaining flare and both need to stand up straighter, so again, set up the bar-wall junctions as the highest points by taking away the wall in the heels. Ramp/rocker/bevel the backs of the buttresses back toward the heel bulbs.
 
RH lateral: Roll the toe under (blue). Rocker the back of the heels (orange).
 
RH sole: Same discussion as for the LH. Again, the lateral heel still has the slight flare while the medial heel just needs to be coaxed to stand up straighter. Roll the toe and rocker the backs of the buttresses after setting the bar-wall junction as the high point by taking the wall out of weight bearing in the heel.
 
Don't forget to add aggressive bevels to the treads of his new boots at both the toes (9-3) and across the backs of the heels to help keep the breakover aligned where it should be and to help him roll over his heels more quickly on landings.
 
--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Bale moisture and when to test to ESC and starch

Judy and Bugsy
 

Thanks Sheri for your reply. Good to know about the bales dropping in moisture content over time.


I’m very interested in more of the details of your “false Floor” and fans and “This allows us to move the bundles via skid steer with forks, instead of unloading by hand.” How do you move the hay bales with a skid steer?  


i would love to have more automation as it always seems to be the hottest days of the year when we handle the small squares  (we are going to use a bale wagon for the first time this year but will still likely have to unload by hand)  

thanks for any info 

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 




Re: Hoof pictures for mark-ups by Lavinia please

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Judy,
 
I've added mark-ups to Bugsy's album"

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

Overall, he's come such a long way 🙂 He's building solid frogs, there is real concavity developing, laminar connections are growing in tighter. Keep working to remove the remnants of the wall flares and laminar wedge in the toes. Continue to encourage the heels to stand up straighter so they can better support him. Watch him move before the trim, then again after. Prioritize heel-first landings so he continues to strengthen the back half of his feet. Compare both collateral groove depths on each foot to assess the medio-lateral balance. Heels are much better than they used to be but haven't quite made it all the way yet. Help them along by taking the walls out of load bearing while setting up the bar-wall junction to become the main support instead. Add rockers to the backs of the heels to both ease the landing and assist the heels to stand taller.
 
LF dorsal: Remove those remaining wall flares from the top.
 
LF lateral: Green line follows the angle of the newest growth coming in under the coronary band toward the ground. It highlights the remaining bit of wedge that is growing out. Blue is where to take the toe back some more to keep the breakover in alignment with the new growth. Bit of blue in the heel is where the wall wants to curl a bit so needs to be removed.
 
LF sole plane: Blue hashes are where to rasp the walls out of ground contact, setting up the bars to carry the load.
 
LF sole: In the heels, take the walls away in the hashed areas. Add a rocker to the backs of the heels. Back the toe to the sold blue line. Leave the sole alone.
 
RF lateral: Green line again follows the angle of the new growth toward the ground. Blue area is where to back the toe. Looks like there may be enough depth to bring those heels back a smidge. Definitely remove the curling heel area.
 
RF sole: Same idea as the LF. Back the toe and set up the bar-wall junction to be the load bearing area while floating the walls in the heels. Rocker the heels.
 
LH dorsal: Remove the remaining lateral wall flare.
 
LH lateral: Back the toe in the blue area to shift the breakover back more. If you look closely, you can see the newest wall angle coming in steeper under the coronary band. If you feel that area lightly with your fingers you should be able to feel the angle change. Remove the bit of wall that is curling in the heel.
 
LH sole: Lateral heel has a distinct flare that needs to be removed. Medial heel flare is much more subtle. Float the walls in the heels so the bar-wall junction is left as the load-bearing area. Rocker backs of heels. Back the toe up to the solid blue line.
 
RH dorsal: Remove the remaining medial wall flare. Check the medio-lateral balance.
 
RH lateral: Back the toe at the blue area. Remove the wall curl in the heel.
 
RH sole: Lime X is the excess frog tip that has detached and can be removed. Float the walls in the heels at the solid blue lines. Back the toe to the solid blue line. Rocker the backs of the heels.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Bale moisture and when to test to ESC and starch

Sheri and Peaches
 

I take an annual delivery of a full year's supply of 2nd cutting grass/alfalfa mix hay and allow it to cure for at least 3 to 5 months before feeding.  When it arrives (i.e., recently baled) the hay may be as much as 18% moisture, but it will dry nicely because of the forced air flow under the floor in my storage building.  Dry, cured hay will typically probe at 11% to 13% moisture. 

Last year, my delivered hay was 21% to 22% moisture, which is unusually high.  Shame on me for not rejecting the delivery.  Over the winter, I threw away at least 20% of the hay bales for being moldy.  Bales that were tight and/or more alfalfa molded horribly.  Bales that were looser and/or a higher portion grass surprisingly did not mold.  All of the bundles looked and felt perfect from the outside, and this is the first time that I have gotten moldy hay from my supplier. 

The tolerable moisture content has a lot to do with how tight your bales are and how the hay is stored after it has been baled.  Stacking on a floor, even if on tarps or pallets, will inevitably lead to mold on the bottom bales, no matter how dry the hay.  A hay loft is much better at preserving hay, because of the air movement below the floor.  Now that we buy hay, we no longer use our hay loft.  Instead, we built a false floor in our storage building with 24/7 air movement via carpet-drying fans blasting under the false floor.  This allows us to move the bundles via skid steer with forks, instead of unloading by hand.  W

I can't speak to round bales, as I don't use them.  I secretly suspect that EPM is most likely transmitted via hay that has been stored outside or in an unsecured building, where possums can nest, urinate and defecate directly on the hay.  I recently tried large squares, and they're easy to store but difficult to feed.

Best wishes with your baling.  That is really hard work!
--
Sheri P in IL 2021
Peaches Case History & files:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sheri%20and%20Peaches


Re: No grass - But why?

Sheri and Peaches
 

Compiling Peaches' photos over the last three years was an eye-opening process.  I'm feeding her to death.  Hanging scale for weighing hay arrived today. 
--
Sheri P in IL 2021
Peaches Case History & files:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sheri%20and%20Peaches


Re: Omega Match Pelleted Feed

Sherry Morse
 

If your horse is PPID and you're seeing an issue with weight, the first thing to do is confirm that his ACTH is actually controlled on the current dose of pergolide/Prascend.  Then you need to look at how much he's eating per day.  We recommend 2% of ideal weight per day (including all hay and concentrates) but some horses may need a bit more and others may need a bit less to maintain their weight.  You mention that your hay is tested, but are you feeding minerals to balance the hay?

Once you complete a Case History we'll have a better idea of what's going on with your guy and be better able to advise you but in the meantime make sure you look at the weight loss checklist: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Weight%20loss%20check-list.pdf




Re: No grass - But why?

Sheri and Peaches
 

The dry analysis numbers make so much more sense.  That should have been obvious, but I was so surprised and confused by the results (while reading the wrong column) that Equi-Analytical even re-tested the Winter grass to confirm.  Thank you for taking the time to help me!
--
Sheri P in IL 2021
Peaches Case History & files:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sheri%20and%20Peaches


Bale moisture and when to test to ESC and starch

Judy and Bugsy
 

Hi All

We bale our own hay and it was cut this morning at around 6:30 am - 8:00 am there was dew on it so it will likely need to be raked before baling. 


We will be making small square bales and a few large rounds (to feed in winter) from the same field .


1.What is the Recommended moisture content range for small squares and for large rounds to avoid mold?  I have read conflicting information (and posts that were older) so I want to get it straight. 


2. Also, how long after being baled should hay samples be sent away for analysis?  Again I’ve read some info that ESC drops after initially being baled but it depends on the moisture content when baled. 


Thanks for you help... this forum is an absolute gold mine to have been found. 😊
--

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 




Re: Invokana horse Cayuse: Insulin tripled with increase in ACTH

 

Thanks! I did get a direct message and have already started medication changes. I'll monitor ACTH, insulin, glucose and triglycerides 3 weeks after I reach the target pergolide dose. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Side effects of Prascend

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Tessa,

Other good sources of prebiotic fiber that helps with keeping the gut bacteria happy and that are cheaper than psyllium are beet pulp (unmollassed, and rinse-soak-rinse before feeding) and ground flaxseed (cheaper to buy bags of whole flax seed from feed store, then grind it yourself).  You could try adding 1cup/day (dry weight) of either/both and see if that helps.  The flax will also supply the Omega-3 fatty acids that are lacking in hay, so if you are not already feeding it you should add it in to Moon's diet.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

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